1500 ATP Minimums for 121

[deadstick]

"If you don't eat your meat you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!"

ATP to be at an airline. Think about it.

:rotfl:

Fair enough. In that case the washout rate at a 121 airline should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 90%.\.

In the 61/141 training, if you don't meet the standard you can write a check to try again.
In the military, if you don't cut it, you get to go do things like blow smoke with the Chemical Corps, oversee the supply depot, or learn about nuke reactors.

 

[subpilot]

I support this legislation because I think that a pilot at 1500TT will overall have better judgement and experience and will be more of an asset in the cockpit versus a liabilty. I know the training captains at Eagle really noticed a difference in the learning curve of new hires when we lowered the hiring minimum from 1000TT to 400TT. Washout rates doubled in the schoolhouse and IOE went from 20-25 hours to 40-60 hours with comments that the captains were having to spend time teaching the new hires how to fly.
As for the possible pressure on the supply and demand curve to raise pay in 121. We can hope and dream but it is unlikely. Look at part 135... this requires 1200TT and yet it pays horrible bad as well.

 

[seaav8tor]

Military low flt time- trains a very select subset to a very high standard at a very high cost and provides an ejection seat. Crash, go get another plane. We used to call it "Give the airplane back to the tax payers." Not the same as selling tickets to the public at large.

If Marvin would have flown 1400 hours teaching stalls in a 172, what he needed to do would have been in his subconscious and everyone on 3407 would be alive today. His limited SA from lack of experience killed everyone. In fact Colgan themselves testified Marvin got his stall training as part of his Private Pilot training. Too bad for the passengers he forgot about that part due to LACK OF EXPERIENCE.

Thats what it's all about, EXPERIENCE.

 

[WalterSobchak]

I believe that "case" is purely psychological. If you never knew how much time a person had you'd have to ascertain how "good" a pilot he is that purely from his performance. Happens all the time in many perspectives (e.g. women in the cockpit; regional pilots not as good as major / legacy pilots, since they fly smaller airplanes, slower aircraft; old guys in the cockpit (is he gonna die in there?); etc.).

Not true I don't ask how much time people have. Usually I find out later in the trip in conversation and it coraborates what I suspected. When some one has very little time in aviation period(ie <1000 hrs) it shows. Probably by the time some one is saying "clear right" for you there won't be the uber low time people. This is what I have experienced.

Lot's of F/O's come from other airlines, too, not just from flight instructing, or whatever, and they may have more time than that reserve captain that just happens to have more senority, therefore making him the PIC.

I've never had an FO with more time than me(including all the ones from other airlines) so I wouldn't know, but I'm sure with the lower time CA's it may be true.

 

[Cptnchia]

That still won't help. The reason people aren't pilots anymore is because the majors pay sucks compared to yesteryear, there is significantly less hiring going on at that level and an increase in flying at the lower pay jobs,

Yes, it will help this situation. Here's how. There are too many carriers flying too many planes around. By raising the mins to ATP level for a part 121 job, it will decrease the amount of qualified applicants. Regionals will have to raise their pay and QOL to attract people.

A natural consequence of that will be that many regionals will not be able to remain in business because a) they are not willing to raise their rates and cannot operate, or b) cannot survive with the higher costs. Either way, there will be a decrease in regionals.

With the decrease in regionals, and the increased costs associated with those that can survive, the majors will have to take back a large amount of the farmed out flying because a) there is no one to fly it, or b) the cost for the regional to fly it is so close to the mainline, there is no cost saving in contracting it out.

I see this as a good thing. YMMV.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

It's about weeding out a lot of people that shouldn't be there. If a guy doesn't have the patience and strength to go out there, bust his butt in the pattern as a CFI, and/or throw some boxes, and/or whatever it takes to get the time and experience (s)he needs, then I know I don't have much use for them.

Some people are too nice to say it, but I really don't mind.

Not all of us "didn't have the patience and strength to go out there and bust our butts in the pattern as CFIs, throw boxes, etc." If you were working on your CFI, had a job that was forcing you to work 13 hour days, and got a job offer at an airline, would you refuse it on principle? Most people wouldn't....

I was one of them. You just have to not kid yourself and know what you're doing. It's not very hard.

A lot of people showed up and failed because the fact that the company hired them at 250 hours made them think they were qualified to fly. It's not a try out.

Not true I don't ask how much time people have. Usually I find out later in the trip in conversation and it coraborates what I suspected. When some one has very little time in aviation period(ie <1000 hrs) it shows. Probably by the time some one is saying "clear right" for you there won't be the uber low time people. This is what I have experienced.

Ironically enough, my favorite Captain, who has been here 24 years, calls clearing turns in cruise.

 

[MikeOH58]

Not all of us "didn't have the patience and strength to go out there and bust our butts in the pattern as CFIs, throw boxes, etc." If you were working on your CFI, had a job that was forcing you to work 13 hour days, and got a job offer at an airline, would you refuse it on principle? Most people wouldn't....

Yes, and many did during 07/08.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

If you were working on your CFI, had a job that was forcing you to work 13 hour days, and got a job offer at an airline, would you refuse it on principle? Most people wouldn't....

*Sigh*

I've said it before, and those that have been on the board, and have known me since BEFORE my CFI days . . . there are a handful of us that DID take the high road, on principle!

Sometimes the high road is the tough road. But, the payoff is much greater in the end.

For years, people have been saying, 'GET YOUR CFI!". When the hiring was fast a year or two ago, a whole lot of people skipped that part, and decided that being a CFI wasn't "for them". Now, many of them are out of jobs, and not qualified to do much of anything else.

At least those that stayed the course, got their CFI certificates, and maybe got ATP minimums and/or 135 minimums, have a couple more options.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

A few points;


Someone on here mentioned that "the 1500 hour street captains at my airline...blah blah blah".

There wouldnt have been 1500 hour street captains if everyone started at the airline with an ATP. The whole reason for 1500 hr street captains was that no one had the flight time to qualify for upgrade (low time hiring!).


Secondly, it needs to be remembered that BOTH the CA and the FO in the CJC crash were "pilot mill" types. The CA was an especially dangerous combo of low time new hire and in his mid 30's.


Some have asked "OMG WTF BRB LOLZ how am I going to get flying time to get to 1500 hrs???"

Well, I dont know... the way most of us have done it for a long time. Flight instruct, small time corporate, freight, fly banners...whatever! I was 22 years old, fresh out of college and had 1700 hours with 350 multi-engine when I got hired by Pinnacle.



I wholeheartedly agree with the requirement of having an ATP to get hired at a regional. As far as the age thing... I was 25 when I started class at Southernjets. The 23 age deal is just fine as it is.

 

[derg]

The airlines are going to fight it but I think it's a good idea overall.

It's going to wreck the business model of doling out fabulous opportunities at MegaLowMart rates, but like Martha Stewart says, "it's a good thing".

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Yes, and many did during 07/08.

Ok, but that doesn't make everyone who didn't get their CFI some sort of stupid pilot. I didn't go out and spend a dime on a jet course.

*Sigh*

I've said it before, and those that have been on the board, and have known me since BEFORE my CFI days . . . there are a handful of us that DID take the high road, on principle!

Sometimes the high road is the tough road. But, the payoff is much greater in the end.

For years, people have been saying, 'GET YOUR CFI!". When the hiring was fast a year or two ago, a whole lot of people skipped that part, and decided that being a CFI wasn't "for them". Now, many of them are out of jobs, and not qualified to do much of anything else.

At least those that stayed the course, got their CFI certificates, and maybe got ATP minimums and/or 135 minimums, have a couple more options.

What of the folks who didn't get their CFI but managed to have an "in" at some company that hired them at 250 hours, they built time until 1500+ hours and got a regional job? Scoff at them as well.

I think I'll just quit my job now since you all think I just had SJS and skipped the "proper" track. That would be the only justice in this world for you guys. I was as surprised as anyone that I even got a job offer.:dunno:

I forgot to add.... I didn't apply to a bunch of companies to fly. I wasn't exactly desperate to get in. I just saw the ad and thought, what the heck, I meet their minimums, I'll give it a shot.

If they had said "no" I probably would have continued working IT. I turned down the chance to interview at Pacific Wings because I thought it was stupid that I had to pay for my own ticket out to Hawaii to get a job "maybe" flying SIC in a 'van.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

This is lovely.

 

[jspeed87]

Now they should set a Salary requirement based on Pilot experience. 1500TT minimum 30K. More then 3000TT Minumum 50K. ect..

 

[USMCmech]

I forgot to add.... I didn't apply to a bunch of companies to fly. I wasn't exactly desperate to get in. I just saw the ad and thought, what the heck, I meet their minimums, I'll give it a shot.

I don't begrudge anyone who got hired with low times. If that opportunity had been dropped in front of me I probably would have done it too.

However, I don't think that putting low timers in the front of a jet is something that should be done again. It was dangerous, and it helped kill some people. It also allowed wages to remain below the poverty level.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I don't begrudge anyone who got hired with low times. If that opportunity had been dropped in front of me I probably would have done it too.

However, I don't think that putting low timers in the front of a jet is something that should be done again. It was dangerous, and it helped kill some people. It also allowed wages to remain below the poverty level.

My take is..... the airlines work to achieve the minimum standards set in the regulations.... well so do pilots. If the minimums had been 2500 hours (which they were when I was in college), you can be darn sure I would have found a way to achieve the minimum of 2500 hours.

Like the post that calcapt made recently, and this seems to be epidemic among aviation anyways..... there's not a lot of respect going around when it comes to hot button issues... I get the definite feeling reading replies (esp. with low timers like myself) that I was a screw-up and an idiot for not doing it their way.

In fact, I don't expect the stigma of having been a low timer to ever go away. Just look at the CJC crash.... both pilots had a couple of thousand hours at the time of the accident....

If my name is ever involved in an NTSB report with a successful outcome, there will be little to no mention of how much time I had when I started. If, 6 to 7 years from now I'm a CA at Pinnacle with 7000 hours TT, and some crazy stuff goes down and I'm killed along with x amount of people, the first thing you'll read about is that I got hired with y amount of hours OMG!

I accept taking the lumps with the associated "low timers are morons" and I strive to be as booksmart and proficient in flying my aircraft as possible, but I find it disheartening that I'll pretty much always be "the low timer".

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

It depends on what you want out of an FO. If all you want out of an FO is a yes man that agrees with everything the captain says, regardless because they don't have the required experience base to disagree with him or her then a 250hr guy is fine.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

It depends on what you want out of an FO. If all you want out of an FO is a yes man that agrees with everything the captain says, regardless because they don't have the required experience base to disagree with him or her then a 250hr guy is fine.

I think for me its going to be harder to disagree with a CA unless I'm about to die now. I had a disagreement with a CA over a maneuver in our book.... what flap setting to go to during climb.... with a jumpseater. When we got to ATL and the jumpseater was gone, the CA told me they don't mind if they call them on something "just make sure you're right before you open your mouth next time".

Turns out I was right, and I didn't even get an apology when I pointed it out.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Turns out I was right, and I didn't even get an apology when I pointed it out.

Very typical of the senior bubbas at regionals.

 

[Baronman]

It depends on what you want out of an FO. If all you want out of an FO is a yes man that agrees with everything the captain says, regardless because they don't have the required experience base to disagree with him or her then a 250hr guy is fine.

I think most CRM curriculums would agree that a "yes" man in the right seat is a threat to the safety of the flight.

Any 'tard can make the necessary call outs etc....I want a guy who has had to make a decision or two (ON HIS/HER OWN) next to me.

Being able to make it though new-hire training is independent of one's value in the cockpit. A 250 hr guy can probably make it though new hire training...Does he bring much situational awareness to the cockpit? Nope...But sure he'll probably make the best call out's you've ever seen.

Flying 121 is more about the grind (especially regional flying). Sure some people aren't great sticks but we get over that...Look at today in the Northeast..It's total crap out. Sorry but I'd prefer to have someone with a little more TT next to me than a 250hr out of the box guy...

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Very typical of the senior bubbas at regionals.

This wasn't a senior captain though. This chick upgraded to CA I think a year ago or less...

Senior guys know their stuff for the most part, so it's just generally the difference between dealing with someone complaining about the company for 1-2 hours or someone who is in a good mood.