1500 ATP Minimums for 121

RynoB said:
I can see your point, but why did they have to hire street captains? Was it because they hired so many 250 hr FOs that none had the time to upgrade when they needed captains? That has happened at more than one airline recently.
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That's a very good point. But it begs the question, what's the lesser of two evils? A 1000hr F/O with 700 of those hours in type? or a 1500hr Captain with 1400 in a 172?

Perhaps the more creative solution would be rewriting the ATP requirements to include SIC time, but perhaps a lower TT? I don't know.

It all seems a little silly to me as the pilots in fatal regional crashes in recent history all met ATP mins. The outcry for mins to be raised is not about safety, it's about pay. Let's all at least be honest about that.
 
smig said:
You must have had a pretty uneventful career if every abnormality you ever encountered had an answer in the checklist book.
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"abnormality" well no, not all answers are in the checklist, sometimes there are abnormally large flight attendants, abnormal rampers, abnormal pax, abnormal smells in the cockpit, abnormal brown streaks in my underwear. But yeah for the most part its been uneventful. These stinkin turbine engines just dont quit like a piston does. You will find in turbine powered aircraft, the planes are very reliable and have redundant systems. The main variable that messes with new people is the weather and after a full season of flying in the north, most people "get it".
 
They might have had ATP mins, but how much was the learning process curtailed by being put in an environment you shouldn't be in too early? You learn A LOT by instructing, and then you learn a lot more by being at a part 135 company for a little while.
 
aloft said:
What about all the current 121 FOs who don't have 1500 hrs? Would they be out of a job?

On the bright side, no more 19 year-olds flying airliners.
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Age has a lot to do with ability and maturity but I do know many 19 year old's that I would rather flying one than many adults I know. Just sayin.
 
No question about it! But are there enough CFI and 135 gigs to support the future needs of filling regional crew seats? People refer to the "old days" when it was unheard of for someone to be flying passengers around without at least a few thousand hours of TT - of course, that was also back when there were more opportunities (as well as attrition) in the military.
 
What does it matter if there are enough jobs to produce the pilots needed for 121 cockpits.

The market will take care of that, right? If people can't find the 135 jobs to get the minimums for 121 jobs, then they won't move on. The ones that can, thus the best applicants, will eh?
 
captnem said:
"abnormality" well no, not all answers are in the checklist, sometimes there are abnormally large flight attendants, abnormal rampers, abnormal pax, abnormal smells in the cockpit, abnormal brown streaks in my underwear. But yeah for the most part its been uneventful. These stinkin turbine engines just dont quit like a piston does. You will find in turbine powered aircraft, the planes are very reliable and have redundant systems. The main variable that messes with new people is the weather and after a full season of flying in the north, most people "get it".
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I bet Al Haynes has a pretty similar outlook on the job too eh?
 
jtrain609 said:
What does it matter if there are enough jobs to produce the pilots needed for 121 cockpits.

The market will take care of that, right? If people can't find the 135 jobs to get the minimums for 121 jobs, then they won't move on. The ones that can, thus the best applicants, will eh?
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But from a quantitative risk assessment point of view, are the 250hr F/Os a large risk to overall safety in the industry?

Lets call a spade a spade here. This is less about safety and more about creating supply/demand scenario in the industry which elevates pilot pay.
 
ladder360 said:
But from a quantitative risk assessment point of view, are the 250hr F/Os a large risk to overall safety in the industry?

Lets call a spade a spade here. This is less about safety and more about creating supply/demand scenario in the industry which elevates pilot pay.
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I agree with that statement you just made, but let's look deeper. The the recently released full CVR of 3407, Shaw states that she feels sick enough to question her abilities to fly. She said she wanted to bang out sick, but couldn't afford the hotel room. She's already commuting across the continent to live at home with her parents. Clearly her decision to fly was based on economic pressure to stay on the company dime. She didn't have enough money of her own to deal with the situation.

If we choke the supply to drive up pay, it provides pilots with better means to address their needs. Clearly, the present state of pay is governed by managers' unwillingness to raise their own costs, regardless of how that passes costs on to employees. If we make it possible that some sort of hiring minimum exists and is enforced, it gives us leverage to rise above the current wage-slavery they keep us in.
 
If you want to call a spade a spade, then somebody who has never stepped foot in a 135 or 121 cockpit is arguing the merits of low timers into a type of operation that they've never actually witnessed or been a part of.

But I don't like that argument very much, and I don't think it has a whole lot of merit in most situations. That being said, I've trained folks before, and I know at this point in the game (and I'm still a low timer, in my opinion) when I look back, I didn't have a clue at 250 hours. Heck I didn't have a clue at 650 when I went to Amflight, or 900 when I got to Express. Further, I still don't really know what I'm doing, and I kind of wonder when you really get it all figured out and you suddenly transcend everything aviation and become one with the job that you do. Maybe when you retire, who knows. But I DO think those that say they have it ALL figured out at 1,400 hours are the dangerous ones.

All that being said, I had no business being in a transport category jet at 250 hours. I could barley stay in front of a student doing steep turns, let alone a jet moving at 450 knots.
 
ladder360 said:
But from a quantitative risk assessment point of view, are the 250hr F/Os a large risk to overall safety in the industry?
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I don't fly for a 121 airline, but I would say yes they are.

I hadn't mastered a 172 at 250 TT, and I would say that any pilot with less than 1500 has no place in the front of a jet airliner. Not having an experianced copilot in the cockpit greatly reduces the safety margin.



The secondary effect that wages will rise, is a nice byproduct. And there are PLENTY of qualified pilots out there who can fill the ranks of the regionals once they start paying a living wage.
 
captnem said:
No. He has quite a different perspective on things....that ONE guy that you mentioned.
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I know dude, seriously.

Oh hey which crippled DC-10 did you manage to bring close enough to the ground to save a bunch of lives?

And which regional are you at? Republic?
 
ladder360 said:
But from a quantitative risk assessment point of view, are the 250hr F/Os a large risk to overall safety in the industry?

Lets call a spade a spade here. This is less about safety and more about creating supply/demand scenario in the industry which elevates pilot pay.
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-Yes

-If that's true, the bill is destined to fail, right? After all, who's got the deep pockets to lobby congress? Airlines or pilots?

-Train to 250
-Beg, borrow and steal to 1200+
-135 for the on demand "quality" time
-121
OR
-Sign up for the military.

Some people obviously got soft during the last hiring frenzy, but, in my opinion, this is a more realistic scenario of what it SHOULD take to make it to 121.
 
Firebird2XC said:
If we choke the supply to drive up pay, it provides pilots with better means to address their needs.
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This wouldn't be lowering the supply of pilots. It would be lowering the demand for pilots with less than 1500. There will still be a glut of low-timers looking for jobs.
 
jtrain609 said:
I know dude, seriously.

Oh hey which crippled DC-10 did you manage to bring close enough to the ground to save a bunch of lives?

And which regional are you at? Republic?
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You know what??

No tri hole experience here...although I have jumpseated on the L1011

I am at Ryan out of RFD on the 76..How about yourself?
 
jtrain609 said:
If you want to call a spade a spade, then somebody who has never stepped foot in a 135 or 121 cockpit is arguing the merits of low timers into a type of operation that they've never actually witnessed or been a part of.

But I don't like that argument very much, and I don't think it has a whole lot of merit in most situations. That being said, I've trained folks before, and I know at this point in the game (and I'm still a low timer, in my opinion) when I look back, I didn't have a clue at 250 hours. Heck I didn't have a clue at 650 when I went to Amflight, or 900 when I got to Express. Further, I still don't really know what I'm doing, and I kind of wonder when you really get it all figured out and you suddenly transcend everything aviation and become one with the job that you do. Maybe when you retire, who knows. But I DO think those that say they have it ALL figured out at 1,400 hours are the dangerous ones.

All that being said, I had no business being in a transport category jet at 250 hours. I could barley stay in front of a student doing steep turns, let alone a jet moving at 450 knots.
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As I am nearing the 250 hr mark I definitely agree. I would feel completely lost if someone threw me into the cockpit of a 121 op. If given the chance I am pretty sure I would not turn down the opportunity, but I have often wondered what people that got hired on at real low hours felt like when they got to their job on the first day. :eek: :insane:
 
juan valdez said:
As I am nearing the 250 hr mark I definitely agree. I would feel completely lost if someone threw me into the cockpit of a 121 op. If given the chance I am pretty sure I would not turn down the opportunity, but I have often wondered what people that got hired on at real low hours felt like when they got to their job on the first day. :eek: :insane:
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Dude, you would be fine. Under the watchful eye of a check airman, you would get the hang of things a few weeks and then work out the kinks and from there. The main thing is just dont shut down an engine when you are doing your panel flows. First day on the job for me was on the 72 in the engineer seat. Kinda cool, kinda hard...but you learn quick...you have to.
 
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