1500 ATP Minimums for 121

Age limit seems silly. On the other hand, I think it can at least be argued that pilots getting more seasoning in flying light aircraft would make them more "complete" aviators than the 500 hour wunderkinder. Was it the Colgan F/O that was talking about how they'd never flown in ice?

Either way, experience is experience, whether you're 8 or 80.
 
Clocks said:
I don't not support this. But it always makes me laugh when a new rule is proposed that wouldn't have prevented a single crash. How many 121 crashes have their been with pilots under 1500 hours? 2000 hours? 2500 hours?

Maybe the minimum should be 5000 hours to be a regional FO.
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Well I don't know there, be wary. There are a lot of crashes with high time pilots too. I mean, they get these giant egos that make them think their fuel is infinite.

I say all pilots should have a minimum of 5000TT, maximum of 7500TT, minimum age of 38, maximum age of 40 (want those long class 1 medicals you know, unsafe at 43), 2 actual glide landings in a space shuttle or equivalent, and must have less than 3,000$ debt when starting.

Oh, and these are the minimums from CFI all the way through ATP...
 
Hate to say it but the traveling public which the gov't answers to does not like the idea of 600hr pilots flying around 121.

Again...you'll weed out many not-so-good pilots by raising the standards.

I'll tell you...getting my certificates was relatively easy. It's tougher flying around for 1200hrs after that as PIC and keeping your nose clean.
 
aloft said:
Are they hiring? I could use an FO job right about now...
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You and the rest of us here. I'm changing fields cause there is no way I can afford food at the current rate I'm going. And look, I'm willing to sacrifice, but I still need my liver and stomach to work later down the road... copy?
 
This is the House version of the bill. Expect major changes.

Even if the airline hiring mins go to ATP mins, the end result is you will have new hires that have a demonstrated ability to stay hungry for a longer period of time. The leap from 250 to 1500 is not huge in the grand scheme of things, but it will probably wash out the "it's cool to be an airline pilot" crowd.
 
Champcar said:
The ATP FO requirements will be one of the first things dropped from the bill. The regional wont be able to find enough pilots the next time they need a ton in a hurry.
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I'm sure that there are a lot of 135 freight pilots that would love to fly for the regionals. I have around 2800hrs and close to 1000hrs TPIC. But the only way that I'd leave my current gig would be if the regionals pay atleast what I'm making now as first year pay (thats my pay without all of the extra flying that I'm doing) as a minimum and there is a 15% raise in pay every year. It would be nice to get a annual bonus like I get at my current gig also! I know that it's pretty demanding, but that's what I believe my time is worth. Anything less and I may as well stick it out here and wait on mainlines to start hiring or go corporate/air ambulance/fractional.

Heck I am close to to the minimums of getting hired at an air ambulance company that starting pay is 70 to 90 grand!
 
I think it's a move in the right direction.

25 would be a good age for the ATP. At least most 25 year olds have some sort of professional experience where they've had their integrity tested once or twice (thus meeting good moral character, etc).

Pilots already on a seniority list will obviously be protected, but I welcome the change.

That said, I don't expect to see either making it into the final bill after conference. The RAA and ATA will have a fit and get their way.
 
welle036 said:
This idea seems like a good move in the current environment with lots of over qualified pilots, but what happens during a period a rapid growth-what if the period of growth is sustained.
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The regionals would have to increase pay to atract the large amount of pilots who are qualified, but do not want to work for that low pay. There is not nor ever has been a "pilot shortage" there was a shortage of pilot who would work for the pitiful wages at the regionals, which is why we saw the hireing boom recently.

In the past 1500 and an ATP written were the least you could get hired with, so an ATP checkride could be handled durring initiall training without any difficulty.
 
I like the minimum experience of 1500 hours, it could be good for better pay.

I think the age requirement doesn't do much.
 
This dumb job (121) is the easiest thing out there. Ohhh Yeah, the occasional "ding, ding" and reference to a checklist really involves alot of Piloting skill doesn't it???? After 100 hours in a jet most people "get it". Who cares if someone flys a twin cessna around for 1500 hours?? The airline environment is completely different anyway. It takes a lot of experience to say "positive rate, gear up, select FLC, so where are you from? Do you commute? Married? kids?" I guess something MAGICAL and MAJESTIC happens when your logbook hours total 1500. It did not for me...
 
captnem said:
This dumb job (121) is the easiest thing out there. Ohhh Yeah, the occasional "ding, ding" and reference to a checklist really involves alot of Piloting skill doesn't it???? After 100 hours in a jet most people "get it". Who cares if someone flys a twin cessna around for 1500 hours?? The airline environment is completely different anyway. It takes a lot of experience to say "positive rate, gear up, select FLC, so where are you from? Do you commute? Married? kids?" I guess something MAGICAL and MAJESTIC happens when your logbook hours total 1500. It did not for me...
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Nice.
 
I highly doubt the ATP stipulation will stick in the bill. The hours one doesn't bother me but I for one don't really have the a whole lot of extra money to go take an ATP ride. I was hoping my employer would provide that to me whenever the time comes that I needed it.

The only other thing that bothers me about it is that I didn't really feel like I was logging "quality" time till I came to FLX. Flying in ice and storms and not to mention a few mechanical failures has really gotten me a lot of valuable experience. If I had say stayed instructing the entire time I feel that my skill/decision making level would have been much the same at 500 hrs, 1000 hrs, 1500 hrs etc...
 
captnem said:
This dumb job (121) is the easiest thing out there. Ohhh Yeah, the occasional "ding, ding" and reference to a checklist really involves alot of Piloting skill doesn't it???? After 100 hours in a jet most people "get it". Who cares if someone flys a twin cessna around for 1500 hours?? The airline environment is completely different anyway. It takes a lot of experience to say "positive rate, gear up, select FLC, so where are you from? Do you commute? Married? kids?" I guess something MAGICAL and MAJESTIC happens when your logbook hours total 1500. It did not for me...
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As evident in your post.
 
I don't think that making the actual ATP ceritificate a requirement to work 121 should be there, but fullfilling all the requirements and experience for an ATP should be a requirement.

I think they should also add a certain minimum 121 and/or 135 time a requirement to act as PIC in the 121/135 environment as well. - this is in addition to the meeting ATP minimums to work in 121.

The scariest pilot I've flown with is a 1500 hr street captain who didn't fly anything bigger than a C182/Piper Seminole before coming to the airline as a captain and had no experience with deicing/winter flying or working with wx radar, not the 250 hr FO.
 
captnem said:
This dumb job (121) is the easiest thing out there. Ohhh Yeah, the occasional "ding, ding" and reference to a checklist really involves alot of Piloting skill doesn't it???? After 100 hours in a jet most people "get it". Who cares if someone flys a twin cessna around for 1500 hours?? The airline environment is completely different anyway. It takes a lot of experience to say "positive rate, gear up, select FLC, so where are you from? Do you commute? Married? kids?" I guess something MAGICAL and MAJESTIC happens when your logbook hours total 1500. It did not for me...
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You must have had a pretty uneventful career if every abnormality you ever encountered had an answer in the checklist book.
 
woodreau said:
I don't think that making the actual ATP ceritificate a requirement to work 121 should be there, but fullfilling all the requirements and experience for an ATP should be a requirement.

I think they should also add a certain minimum 121 and/or 135 time a requirement to act as PIC in the 121/135 environment as well. - this is in addition to the meeting ATP minimums to work in 121.

The scariest pilot I've flown with is a 1500 hr street captain who didn't fly anything bigger than a C182/Piper Seminole before coming to the airline as a captain and had no experience with deicing/winter flying or working with wx radar, not the 250 hr FO.
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I can see your point, but why did they have to hire street captains? Was it because they hired so many 250 hr FOs that none had the time to upgrade when they needed captains? That has happened at more than one airline recently.
 
I am all for having higher time minimums, but the age restriction is stupid. Needing to be 28 years old to fly an airliner would be rediculous.

Alex.
 
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