121 future with vaccine

400% higher than the next highest division?! What the heck are you guys doing? Sharing a popsicle?!

We have no information regarding flight ops at our company. They won't tell us. Maybe I don't even want to know.


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We’re nasty.

Well, I think it’s a blend of political perspective and if you think COVID is more of a hoax than an actual pandemic.

The stews are back there dealing with potentially nasty people, masked-up, gloved-up, taking precautions.

The two dudes up front maybe think it’s a hassle to “Matrix” all of the surfaces, do stupid stuff on layovers and are probably hanging out with other COVID deniers and exposing themselves.

Being ‘mask free’ in a group in close proximity in 2020 is essentially almost like having unprotected sex with strangers in 1980. You’re not having sex with that barfly you met in Buffalo, you’re having sex with all the other people your paramour had sex with in the last six or so weeks.

So when you yank your mask off when you hit the pilot lounge and sit within spittle distance of another pilot who you don’t know where he’s been and how serious they’re taking it, well, “eww, gross”.

And it happens all the time, thus, the 400% (actually 450%) higher incidence of COVID infection amongst the pilots.
 
I'm about as far on the opposite side of anti-vax as you can get, but rushing a vaccine to "market" is bad.

Businesses who try to mandate it based on "public sentiment" are probably setting themselves up for badness also.

My guess is that the FAA isn't going to look too kindly on minimally tested vaccines without a lengthy waiting period. An airline "mandating it" is setting themselves up for all kinds of mayhem.

My $0.02.
 
I'm about as far on the opposite side of anti-vax as you can get, but rushing a vaccine to "market" is bad.

Businesses who try to mandate it based on "public sentiment" are probably setting themselves up for badness also.

My guess is that the FAA isn't going to look too kindly on minimally tested vaccines without a lengthy waiting period. An airline "mandating it" is setting themselves up for all kinds of mayhem.

My $0.02.
Boy this gets more confusing by the day.

If Covid is so bad we have to shoot the economy in the head or everyone dies older than 70, and herd immunity can't be reached because the death toll is too large, then and imperfect vaccine is a no brainer if makes it through expedited trials. Except, no, the vaccine is worse than Covid because they didnt test it for years.

What am i missing here? It seems like Covid is terrible and dangerous (i agree) but taking the vaccine is crazy risky assuming it makes it through trials?
 
Boy this gets more confusing by the day.

If Covid is so bad we have to shoot the economy in the head or everyone dies older than 70, and herd immunity can't be reached because the death toll is too large, then and imperfect vaccine is a no brainer if makes it through expedited trials. Except, no, the vaccine is worse than Covid because they didnt test it for years.

What am i missing here? It seems like Covid is terrible and dangerous (i agree) but taking the vaccine is crazy risky assuming it makes it through trials?
Well, a vaccine could make things worse. We just don’t have enough data to say right now. I always think about dengue fever in these times. They created a vaccine for it a few years back and tested it widely in Southeast Asia. Unfortunately what they found was that for a certain group of people it actually increased the likelihood of death from dengue fever if you had previously been infected.

Also, we can look at swine flu vaccine that the ford administration tried to rush out during an election year. It was an absolute disaster that caused serious reactions.

Vaccines aren’t simple.
 
Well, a vaccine could make things worse. We just don’t have enough data to say right now. I always think about dengue fever in these times. They created a vaccine for it a few years back and tested it widely in Southeast Asia. Unfortunately what they found was that for a certain group of people it actually increased the likelihood of death from dengue fever if you had previously been infected.

Also, we can look at swine flu vaccine that the ford administration tried to rush out during an election year. It was an absolute disaster that caused serious reactions.

Vaccines aren’t simple.
*Throws arms up in air* i hope this all makes sense later.
 
It damn better be the answer. We have destroyed the economic heath of this country and pegged hopes on a vaccine as the exit out of this pandemic.


We could have done herd immunity and killed maybe 500k-1mil but be done with this pandemic already, or at least by the end of the year.
 
Boy this gets more confusing by the day.

If Covid is so bad we have to shoot the economy in the head or everyone dies older than 70, and herd immunity can't be reached because the death toll is too large, then and imperfect vaccine is a no brainer if makes it through expedited trials. Except, no, the vaccine is worse than Covid because they didnt test it for years.

What am i missing here? It seems like Covid is terrible and dangerous (i agree) but taking the vaccine is crazy risky assuming it makes it through trials?

My $0.02.....take it for what it's worth. Some people aren't going to like what I'm going to say.

Times are good. Better than they've ever been. People are, for the most part, fed, jobbed, sheltered and healthy beyond the dreams of avarice only 120 years ago. Barely a blink in the time of human existence.

"A Million Ways to Die in the West" was a comedy, to be sure, but that doesn't make it wrong. For the vast, VAST majority of human existence, up until VERY recently, illness, injury and death was painful, sudden, and blind. It came to everyone, in horrific ways, simply by going about your life. Small pox, dysentery, plague, tetanus, rabies, yellow fever, horrible hemorrhagic fevers, cancer, mauled by farm animals...the list is long and that's not even including the ways people injure or kill themselves by being, well, human. In the last 100 years we've accomplished wonders, including mitigating stuff that was simply a nuisance to the vast majority (although not so to a very limited population) like chickenpox and measles.

Humans, however, are NOT wired for zero drama in their lives. There always has to be some, and when there is none, they create it. Its in our very nature, and why this seems worse than it really is. For example, thousands and thousands of children die every year. Some horrifically at the hands of their parents, some due to the ravages of cancer, some due to injury. Yet when one kid, ONE, falls down a well, the entire nation stops.

Why is this relevant? It shows that people have a horrible sense of proportion and a really poor idea of risk. We consume megaliters of water out of plastic bottles, a process that consumes untold resources in production and distribution, creates a tremendous waste problem, and clean water is readily available for the taking, practically EVERYWHERE for absolutely free. The water in the worst dump of a gas station bathroom is completely potable. To quote one aid worker from Africa: "you have so much clean water in the USA, you s4!t in it."

The 1959 flu pandemic killed 100,000 in the US, and a million worldwide, based on a population of 178 million & 3 billion respectively, for a per capita of 0.06% and 0.03%. The 1969 flu had about the same numbers overall, but the population was 202 million & 3.6 billion respectively, so the per capita was slightly lower. Our population now is double that, both in the US and worldwide, so yea, bad bugs come around, you HAVE to assume the numbers will be greater, so 200,000 in the US and 2 million world wide gives you identical numbers. Heck, we're lucky we didn't have one sooner, so if you amortize the break between 1969 and now, that's 50 years....not too shabby, considering back to back flus offed 200,000 people over the course of 10 years.

Yet in both previous cases, the world did not fall off it's axis. Why? Probably because people were not so far removed from true horrors. The horrors of war, the horrors of disease (polio, for instance) and car's that didn't have an inflatable safety bubbles, so street pizza was a much more common occurrence.

We are so far removed from true horror, strife, hunger and deprivation we have to create drama. So when a little bit of true drama occurs, it is magnified beyond all reason.

400,000 die of malaria every year. EVERY YEAR, with 288 MILLION affected. Heck, 200,000 die of blood flukes. EVERY YEAR.

Yet, no one is wearing little mosquito or snail pins.

For vast part of the population, the chance of getting something serious and it sticks with you is impossibly small. Use your head, don't hang around the old or infirm when you're sick, but otherwise spare me the drama, get a sense of proportion, and get back to your lives because nature is going to nature.
 
CNN quoting a Trump supporter in Michigan:

“I'm not afraid. The good Lord takes care of me. If I die, I die! We gotta get this country moving. What are we gonna do? Wear masks and stay inside for another year? Where will that get us? Let's just mail out more checks to everybody and let the country go bankrupt."”
 
I'm about as far on the opposite side of anti-vax as you can get, but rushing a vaccine to "market" is bad.

Businesses who try to mandate it based on "public sentiment" are probably setting themselves up for badness also.

My guess is that the FAA isn't going to look too kindly on minimally tested vaccines without a lengthy waiting period. An airline "mandating it" is setting themselves up for all kinds of mayhem.

My $0.02.

My “yellow card” is chock full of vaccines (up to date!) boosters and I follow the schedule to a T.

When I started flying international, I told the Good Doctor Forred that “Just write down everything you think I should have if I was in the jungle in Thailand, a Malaria Endemic Zone in Western Africa or eating street food in Cairo” and I did them all, and still do regular boosters.

I love vaccines and science.

But, a vax rushed to market because of political pressure? Oh, eff THAT! And no, after the Tuskegee Experiments the government has to both acknowledge and rebuild that trust before I allow myself to be a test subject.
 
My “yellow card” is chock full of vaccines (up to date!) boosters and I follow the schedule to a T.

When I started flying international, I told the Good Doctor Forred that “Just write down everything you think I should have if I was in the jungle in Thailand, a Malaria Endemic Zone in Western Africa or eating street food in Cairo” and I did them all, and still do regular boosters.

I love vaccines and science.

But, a vax rushed to market because of political pressure? Oh, eff THAT! And no, after the Tuskegee Experiments the government has to both acknowledge and rebuild that trust before I allow myself to be a test subject.
I mean, political pressure? This thing is gonna kill 200k easy. I get it you don't trust it, I'm not asking you to, isnt it possible everyone (cynic and career government employee doing good things) all said, "yo, you rush this thing through as safely as possible!"

Im not saying the vaccine will be perfect, but it's gotta be bad (worse than first polio vaccine bad) to say numerically its worse than covid.

I feel like I'm living in crazy world or something.
 
I mean, political pressure? This thing is gonna kill 200k easy. I get it you don't trust it, I'm not asking you to, isnt it possible everyone (cynic and career government employee doing good things) all said, "yo, you rush this thing through as safely as possible!"

Im not saying the vaccine will be perfect, but it's gotta be bad (worse than first polio vaccine bad) to say numerically its worse than covid.

I feel like I'm living in crazy world or something.

You understand that a vaccine not properly tested can be an extinction level event, right? There is a very good reason that there are protocols for these things that take a very long time to ensure safety.
 
CNN quoting a Trump supporter in Michigan:

“I'm not afraid. The good Lord takes care of me. If I die, I die! We gotta get this country moving. What are we gonna do? Wear masks and stay inside for another year? Where will that get us? Let's just mail out more checks to everybody and let the country go bankrupt."”
That guy should go read what Martin Luther had to say about whether one may flee from a deadly plague, and what actions are appropriate and not:

“If one makes no use of intelligence or medicine when he could do so without detriment to his neighbor, such a person injures his body and must beware lest he become a suicide in God’s eyes. By the same reasoning a person might forego eating and drinking, clothing and shelter, and boldly proclaim his faith that if God wanted to preserve him from starvation and cold, he could do so without food and clothing. Actually that would be suicide. It is even more shameful for a person to pay no heed to his own body and to fail to protect it against the plague the best he is able, and then to infect and poison others who might have remained alive if he had taken care of his body as he should have. He is thus responsible before God for his neighbor’s death and is a murderer many times over. Indeed, such people behave as though a house were burning in the city and nobody were trying to put the fire out. Instead they give leeway to the flames so that the whole city is consumed, saying that if God so willed, he could save the city without water to quench the fire.”
 
You understand that a vaccine not properly tested can be an extinction level event, right? There is a very good reason that there are protocols for these things that take a very long time to ensure safety.
I think I have that understanding as much as any layman can, and that they arent skipping that checklist item. I'm not trying to insult anyone I just have trouble understanding the risk assessment here. Its not like this is a wild west vaccine.

I do get to talk to a guy whose dad is a pharmacist and he, second hand, had some good info about why, but I guess I'm a sucker for the establishment? Idk.

Maybe this is just something everyone has to decide for themselves and I should stop worrying.

If you're honestly concerned this vaccine will be an extinction level event are you stocking up canned goods for its release? I know that's a curt question but i can't fathom the other side very well.
 
I think I have that understanding as much as any layman can, and that they arent skipping that checklist item. I'm not trying to insult anyone I just have trouble understanding the risk assessment here. Its not like this is a wild west vaccine.

I do get to talk to a guy whose dad is a pharmacist and he, second hand, had some good info about why, but I guess I'm a sucker for the establishment? Idk.

Maybe this is just something everyone has to decide for themselves and I should stop worrying.

If you're honestly concerned this vaccine will be an extinction level event are you stocking up canned goods for its release? I know that's a curt question but i can't fathom the other side very well.

No, because I think most people won't take the vaccine if it's rushed to market. I can guarantee you that any vaccine approved by the Trump administration will not be trusted by 60% of the population, at least.
 
No, because I think most people won't take the vaccine if it's rushed to market. I can guarantee you that any vaccine approved by the Trump administration will not be trusted by 60% of the population, at least.

Trump has convinced his supporters that vaccines (and science in general) are terrible, and his stupid interference in medical and scientific processes will cause the rest of America to have serious doubts about the safety of any vaccine pushed forward very quickly by his administration.
 
No, because I think most people won't take the vaccine if it's rushed to market. I can guarantee you that any vaccine approved by the Trump administration will not be trusted by 60% of the population, at least.
So now what? No vaccine for 4.5 yrs? Who's going to need it in 2025?
 
So now what? No vaccine for 4.5 yrs? Who's going to need it in 2025?

That's cute, but the likelihood of a Donny victory is only 1 in 4. If he does pull that rabbit out of the hat somehow after being partially responsible for the deaths of a quarter million citizens, then yes, it's unlikely that a large portion of the country will take a vaccine approved by his administration.
 
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