Pinnacle to resume classes!!!

[SpiraMirabilis]

I bet if you really tried, you could find dozens of you all...that's not the point. Across the board, there's a lot more wet commercial pilots at airlines who paid for a jet course than those who didn't. Turboprop operators and Mesa may be the exception.

There were 3 guys in my initial hire class of 15 at Mesa who were really low time. 2 of them didn't make it through the sim, the one who did went through a course like that. *shrug* Highest time in my class was over 5000 hours, with an Embraer/Legacy PIC type rating. Average time was like 1000 hours, believe it or not.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

When it's staffed by and marketed in conjunction with an airline, essentially guarantees a job, and gets the under-qualified participants jobs over much more qualified applicants, it's not a good thing. Wouldn't you agree that advancement in this industry ought to be bsed on achievement and qualifications?

I don't know of an RJ program that actually guarantees you a job. They guarantee interviews, but not jobs. There is no program that a noob can go to and be guaranteed a job at Pinnacle upon completion. He may stand a better chance at getting the job if he's successful in the interview, but that's about it.

I have to disagree. If a 250 hour guy can get hired with it and a 1000 hour CFI with 200 ME and 100 IMC can't, it's a pay for job course.

I completely disagree. The RJ course is considered an extra qualification that the CFI doesn't have. Once you reach a certain number of hours, the company considers the hours of experience to outweigh the RJ course. I see nothing wrong with ranking a candidate based upon an extra piece of education that he's received. This is done in many fields.

Not to mention some purported connections between JetU and PNCL hiring departments and kickbacks. I have nothing to back that up, but interesting nonetheless.

This has been looked into, and no evidence can be found whatsoever. It's highly unlikely that any kickbacks are taking place.

 

[DL31082]

Granted I'm probably the wrong person to be posting on this thread since I am one of those 250 guys that everyone seems to hate. And yes I have completed an RJ course. To all of the people saying that this guy is taking a job away from a guy with 121 experience. It sounds like he was hired a couple of months ago and put in a pool. Which means he was hired well before any one was furloughing. I would hope that an airline would put the guys that they have in a pool through class before the start interviewing anybody else. But remember this is the opinion of a guy that everyone with 121 experience seems to loath.

 

[surreal1221]

Look guys. . .argueing the merits of RJ courses is really pointless right now.

Thankfully - the industry is in a negative slide. Meaning that the supply of significantly over-qualified pilots are more than the demand for such pilots.

The past two years, hell - 3 perhaps, has been an amazing time for even low to mid-time CFI's to get hired by airlines. Because of the airlines lack of ability to attract the applicants at the 1500-2000TT/500ME time, the slide began to see how low they could go. It eventually reached the wet CMEL level, with or without an RJ course. The RJ course was simply an insurance policy to help support the companies' position that these 190/250TT individuals could pass ground school; whether they would be worth their salt in the right seat or if they could even hold the plane straight and level, much less fly an approach to minimums - single engine, didn't even matter. Just that they could get through training was good enough, the rest of the stuff our respective companies felt that it would be okay for them to learn outside of the schoolhouse.

Now, fast forward to now.

Airlines are done hiring.

Many airlines have closed their doors.

Those airlines sent thousands of pilots to the street that have jet, 121, passenger and cargo experience.

Those guys are now looking for jobs.

Do I really have to say it? If/when our respective companies begin hiring again, they're going to be flooded with resumes from people who have jet experience, 121 experience.

The "need" for an RJ course to the industry has ceased to exist, in my humble opinion.

 

[kellwolf]

I completely disagree. The RJ course is considered an extra qualification that the CFI doesn't have. Once you reach a certain number of hours, the company considers the hours of experience to outweigh the RJ course. I see nothing wrong with ranking a candidate based upon an extra piece of education that he's received. This is done in many fields.

I still call BS. My new hire class was all CFIs with an average time off 1000+. I was one of the low time guys with 970. Then JetU came along, and guys in my time range can't even get an interview without hearing "Well, if you take a jet course, we'll offer you an interview." Not a job, an INTERVIEW. If these guys were okay 3 months earlier, what's wrong with them now? Especially since they couldn't even fill interview groups as it was. Forget about filling classes. Pinnacle has pretty much started requiring guys sub-1000-1200 hours to buy a jet course or a type rating. THAT'S paying for a job at Pinnacle, pure and simple. Now, if they wanna put on their requirements page that it's required, fine. Then watch the applications dry up. The guys I tried to get on at Pinnacle wound up at places like Republic, PSA and XJT, none of which said jack about a jet course. If they were good enough to pass the interview and training at those places, I'm pretty certain they would have done just fine here at Pinnacle.

When JetU came on the scene, it was almost like a light switch turning off how quickly hiring started preferring the guys that had been through a jet course versus the CFIs with 3-4 times the TT, 100s more hours ME and 100s more hours of PIC time. At what point do they consider experience to outweigh a jet course that is designed to get your through ground school and sims?

 

[surreal1221]

Steve, that last paragraph.

You're asking the wrong questions.

The regionals over the past few years, and obviously Pinnacle, didn't (perhaps don't) care about experience any more. They want a warm body, that has the minimum qualifications.

 

[joliet]

I still call BS. My new hire class was all CFIs with an average time off 1000+. I was one of the low time guys with 970. Then JetU came along, and guys in my time range can't even get an interview without hearing "Well, if you take a jet course, we'll offer you an interview." Not a job, an INTERVIEW. If these guys were okay 3 months earlier, what's wrong with them now? Especially since they couldn't even fill interview groups as it was. Forget about filling classes. Pinnacle has pretty much started requiring guys sub-1000-1200 hours to buy a jet course or a type rating. THAT'S paying for a job at Pinnacle, pure and simple. Now, if they wanna put on their requirements page that it's required, fine. Then watch the applications dry up. The guys I tried to get on at Pinnacle wound up at places like Republic, PSA and XJT, none of which said jack about a jet course. If they were good enough to pass the interview and training at those places, I'm pretty certain they would have done just fine here at Pinnacle.

When JetU came on the scene, it was almost like a light switch turning off how quickly hiring started preferring the guys that had been through a jet course versus the CFIs with 3-4 times the TT, 100s more hours ME and 100s more hours of PIC time. At what point do they consider experience to outweigh a jet course that is designed to get your through ground school and sims?

In reality, the guys who had the jet course, training in a certified CRJ FTD, and formal classroom education about flying jet airplanes, were probably better candidates in the eyes of the Pinnacle managers, than a guy who has spent the last year flying around in circles in a Cessna 152.

They want a warm body, that has the minimum qualifications.

Exactly!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

If these guys were okay 3 months earlier, what's wrong with them now?

Nothing is "wrong" with them, HR simply didn't feel that they were as qualified as the guy with the RJ course graduation, and frankly, I agree with them. It's hard to argue with cold, hard facts. Washout rates plummeted after we started taking the RJ course graduates. Those 1,000 hr CFIs were falling like flies. The jet course graduates made it through in much higher numbers, reducing training costs, and you can't tell a bit of difference in the completed candidate once he gets to the line. To put it simply, both the 1,000 hr CFI and the 300 hr RJ course graduate are practically useless as line pilots until they get more time in the operation, but the RJ course graduate has much less trouble with training. The end result is the same with lower training costs.

Forget about filling classes. Pinnacle has pretty much started requiring guys sub-1000-1200 hours to buy a jet course or a type rating. THAT'S paying for a job at Pinnacle, pure and simple.

I still don't see how you make that connection. They aren't buying their jobs, because there is no guarantee of a job in the first place. Their only guarantee is that of an interview, and they have to pass the interview like every other candidate.

At what point do they consider experience to outweigh a jet course that is designed to get your through ground school and sims?

At Pinnacle, I believe the cutoff was 1,200 & 200. If you had those times, no RJ course required. Not sure if those are still the cutoffs or not. I see nothing wrong with such a set of criteria.

 

[joliet]

Well as soon as he has his 1000 TPIC he'll be back here bitching about the guys that went to higher power to get their 737 types, and getting interviews, and hired at Southwest.

 

[surreal1221]

Surprisingly, I've started to investigate 75/76 type rating programs.

Would be nice if there was a 777 type rating program that I could find that was less than the amount of GI Bill money I'll have left after finishing my degree.

 

[Airdale]

I'm gettin a 73 type during my furlough with government money.

 

[zmiller4]

You're asking the wrong questions.

He's asking precisely the right questions. With the state of the industry today, it's unbelievable that a company is bypassing experienced pilots to hire those who simply possess the financial means to pay for a jet course.

How you and PCL--the two biggest ALPA cheerleaders on the website--fail to see that making RJ courses mandatory for hiring is a bad thing for the profession is totally beyond me.

 

[meritflyer]

How you and PCL--the two biggest ALPA cheerleaders on the website--fail to see that making RJ courses mandatory for hiring is a bad thing for the profession is totally beyond me.

Ironic isn't it?

Those two advocate a strong, experienced, unified pilots' union yet are defending putting a 250 hour pilot in the right seat of a commercial aircraft. How this keeps the bar high is beyond me.

It sends a clear message to airline managers that inexperienced pilots are willing to put up the cash for a jet course. Before you know it, it'll be required followed by a mandatory RJ type.

The only thing these shortcuts do is take some jet thirsty kid and put them in an airline pilot uniform and jet. You pay for your training to get a commercial certificate with the appropriate ratings. Beyond that, the airlines should cover the cost of the pilot to learn their aircraft 100%.

The two ALPA mongers on board need to realize the impact of having such people in their profession but it'd appear that their minds are made up.

 

[kellwolf]

Well as soon as he has his 1000 TPIC he'll be back here bitching about the guys that went to higher power to get their 737 types, and getting interviews, and hired at Southwest.

There's a difference there. SWA actually pays well. If you look at their pay compared to another major that doesn't require a type rating, well, damn. It's night and day. Honestly, I'd rather pay for the type rating and make more $$$ than not pay for it and make less. I worked out the financials, and based solely on making guarantee you make up the difference in a couple of months. Also, SWA is pretty upfront about requiring a type rating. No where in PCL's advertised minimums does it say "jet course required." I still don't know how the people that pay for those things can afford to live without going insane on first year FO pay.

Nothing is "wrong" with them, HR simply didn't feel that they were as qualified as the guy with the RJ course graduation, and frankly, I agree with them. It's hard to argue with cold, hard facts. Washout rates plummeted after we started taking the RJ course graduates. Those 1,000 hr CFIs were falling like flies. The jet course graduates made it through in much higher numbers, reducing training costs, and you can't tell a bit of difference in the completed candidate once he gets to the line. To put it simply, both the 1,000 hr CFI and the 300 hr RJ course graduate are practically useless as line pilots until they get more time in the operation, but the RJ course graduate has much less trouble with training. The end result is the same with lower training costs.

Todd, we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I agree it's better for MANAGEMENT. Of course they're looking to lower washout rates. But what would be better? Raising pay to attract better quality applicants or hiring the low time guys that paid for a sneak peek at ground school? They've already made their choice.

I still don't see how you make that connection. They aren't buying their jobs, because there is no guarantee of a job in the first place. Their only guarantee is that of an interview, and they have to pass the interview like every other candidate.

Okay, so interview. But the guys that don't take the jet course don't even get THAT opportunity. Kinda hard to get the job if you can't even interview. They've slacked the interview down, too. They don't even do a sim eval anymore, and that nixed two people in the interview group I was in right there.

 

[Trip7]

Nothing is "wrong" with them, HR simply didn't feel that they were as qualified as the guy with the RJ course graduation, and frankly, I agree with them. It's hard to argue with cold, hard facts. Washout rates plummeted after we started taking the RJ course graduates. Those 1,000 hr CFIs were falling like flies. The jet course graduates made it through in much higher numbers, reducing training costs, and you can't tell a bit of difference in the completed candidate once he gets to the line. To put it simply, both the 1,000 hr CFI and the 300 hr RJ course graduate are practically useless as line pilots until they get more time in the operation, but the RJ course graduate has much less trouble with training. The end result is the same with lower training costs.

Well said PCL. I actually going against the JC bandwagon on this one. Folks as much as you guys LOVE to rant about the low time guys and facts speak for its self. The RJ course guys statistically do much better than the no RJ course guys.

A rep from ASA HR department came on here and said the same thing a while back and got semi-flamed. In our new-hire material at ASA it said statistically (get ready to have a heart attack) that part 135 pilots had the most difficult time making the transition.

The HR people are professionals and are there to fill seats with new-hires best prepared to do the job, not based on pilots imaginary expectations.

And stop giving this BS about RJ courses bringing down the industry. 10 years ago guys with well over 2000T were paying well over what its costs for an RJ course to attend 121 groundschool at the regionals. And there was no paycheck/hotel during training. We have good nowadays compared to back then...

 

[kellwolf]

Well said PCL. I actually going against the JC bandwagon on this one. Folks as much as you guys LOVE to rant about the low time guys and facts speak for its self. The RJ course guys statistically do much better than the no RJ course guys

Yep. And people that bought copies of the final exams statistically do better on the final as well. I'm not disputing the fact these guys do well in GROUND SCHOOL. Bully for management. I'm more concerned about the guys I'VE flown with that almost scrape a wing tip b/c they don't know what a cross wind landing is (can't really practice those in a sim) and over lunch talk about how they can upgrade in less than a year.....

 

[meritflyer]

FWIW, my class did fine. Only one 19 year old ATP guy did the course.

 

[meritflyer]

Well said PCL. I actually going against the JC bandwagon on this one. Folks as much as you guys LOVE to rant about the low time guys and facts speak for its self. The RJ course guys statistically do much better than the no RJ course guys.

No #### Sherlock. If I had the manuals to the ERJ, I'd would've scored 100 instead of 99 on my systems test.

A rep from ASA HR department came on here and said the same thing a while back and got semi-flamed. In our new-hire material at ASA it said statistically (get ready to have a heart attack) that part 135 pilots had the most difficult time making the transition.

The 135 guys I know did absolutely fine in 121 school. Again, making it through ground school and being a liability for the CA are two different things. If all you're concerned about it making through GS, by all means waste your time and money on putting "RJ Course Graduate" on your resume.

The HR people are professionals and are there to fill seats with new-hires best prepared to do the job, not based on pilots imaginary expectations.

IMO, this has long been an issue with HR doing the hiring of pilots. I saw plenty of guys who pulled the wool over on thr XJT HR folks.

And stop giving this BS about RJ courses bringing down the industry. 10 years ago guys with well over 2000T were paying well over what its costs for an RJ course to attend 121 groundschool at the regionals. And there was no paycheck/hotel during training. We have good nowadays compared to back then...

XJT used to be a PFT operation waaayyy back in the day. Long story real short, the guys who did it, were well known and ultimately, disliked. The concerning thing about you Marcus is you've always been satisfied with the way things are - good leadership qualitites.

It's a sad day for aviation in general when a pilot is no longer judged by his amount of time spent in the air but rather his time spent in a 2 week, several thousand dollar course. Hopefully the airlines that people actually want to fly for don't catch on.

 

[gtpilot]

In our new-hire material at ASA it said statistically (get ready to have a heart attack) that part 135 pilots had the most difficult time making the transition.

Slight misquote (maybe on their side?) - historically pt 135 from single pilot ops had difficulty making the transition. We had two high timers (3000+ hrs) in my class and they were on par with the 300 hr RJ course pilots. There were three of us with 135 right seat time and we all breezed through.

Interestingly enough, ASA was PFT 10 years back.

 

[Trip7]

Yep. And people that bought copies of the final exams statistically do better on the final as well. I'm not disputing the fact these guys do well in GROUND SCHOOL. Bully for management. I'm more concerned about the guys I'VE flown with that almost scrape a wing tip b/c they don't know what a cross wind landing is (can't really practice those in a sim) and over lunch talk about how they can upgrade in less than a year.....

Im hoping you mean they don't know how to properly cross wind land a CRJ-200 not they don't know what a cross wind landing is. Besides, those guys probably need time in the airplane and operation before they get comfortable. I could crosswind land the 152/172/182/BE-76/PA-144 with my eyes closed but when I got to the ATR it took me a couple bounces to figure it out

No #### Sherlock. If I had the manuals to the ERJ, I'd would've scored 100 instead of 99 on my systems test.



The 135 guys I know did absolutely fine in 121 school. Again, making it through ground school and being a liability for the CA are two different things. If all you're concerned about it making through GS, by all means waste your time and money on putting "RJ Course Graduate" on your resume.



IMO, this has long been an issue with HR doing the hiring of pilots. I saw plenty of guys who pulled the wool over on thr XJT HR folks.



XJT used to be a PFT operation waaayyy back in the day. Long story real short, the guys who did it, were well known and ultimately, disliked. The concerning thing about you Marcus is you've always been satisfied with the way things are - good leadership qualitites.

It's a sad day for aviation in general when a pilot is no longer judged by his amount of time spent in the air but rather his time spent in a 2 week, several thousand dollar course. Hopefully the airlines that people actually want to fly for don't catch on.

Merit it doesn't matter about how well the people "you know" did. Its about cold hard facts. RJ course guys do better overall in training. Not just the ground, but in the sim as well. To back up a fact, the guy in my class that had 135 time was telling me in the hotel about how tough it was for him when he's used to doing everything by himself in the King Air. He passed just as your 135 buddy did, but it was not as easy for him as it was for most of us.

If the airlines started offering bonuses for cost saved during training I believe many would magically become strong adocates of the RJ program.