Pinnacle to resume classes!!!

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Downside to that is higher salaries - higher school loans = same take home pay......

True, but the higher pay will most likely far outweigh the increased cost, simply because of the supply/demand dynamics. Companies will be forced to increase pay to the point where they can attract applicants. By definition, that means increasing pay enough to more than offset the increased educational expenses. The fact is, this profession has been torn down so much that it's no longer desirable to most kids. When I was a kid growing up in Atlanta, the Delta guys were living relatively extravagant lifestyles. That's just not the case anymore. The kids growing up in Peachtree City today will not see those Delta pilots with three BMWs and a 5,000 sq ft house. They'll see a guy with maybe one new BMW and a used car for a spare, and maybe a 3,000 sq ft house. In other words, not much different than you can get from working your way up into middle management in half the time (or quicker). Kids aren't complete idiots. They can tell when something is worthwhile or not, and for new pilots just starting their careers now, this career isn't worthwhile anymore unless you just can't be happy doing anything other than flying airplanes.

When the pay actually starts sliding the right direction, I'll say "Todd was right."

You do realize that I'm going to hold you to that, right?

 

[meritflyer]

I consider this a good thing. The more it costs to get into the business, the smaller the pool of potential candidates. Less supply, greater demand. That means our leverage goes up. If medical school was cheap, then my allergist wouldn't make $250k a year for some of the easiest work a human being has ever done. It's all about controlling the supply.

Comparing medical school to flight school?

Oh man.. I've heard it all.

 

[surreal1221]

It actually doesn't look like he compared the two, but rather provided another professional training environment and how the high cost of training restricts the number of potential professionals for that career. Hence reducing supply, and increasing demand.

But I don't know. . .I try not to read too deeply into things.

 

[mikecweb]

Not really sure what happened to you, but I must say I have been pretty surprised by some of your most recent comments. We all change, some more than others - and in very different fashions. Let's not forget that.

You obviously don't remember Merit before he played regional pilot for a few months.

 

[surreal1221]

I thought I did. . .but yeah - maybe a journey to some old merit posts will realign my ability to see him in his prime.

 

[meritflyer]

Kids aren't complete idiots. They can tell when something is worthwhile or not, and for new pilots just starting their careers now, this career isn't worthwhile anymore unless you just can't be happy doing anything other than flying airplanes.

You logic is all over the place. Newbies don't have a clue about how it works unless they spend a boat load of time here on JC. If not, they end up at Gulfstream.

In my short time at the airlines, do you know how many CA's told me they were still paying off flight school? Some paying $1000+ every month. Even on CA's pay, that's life altering. At least a new doc can make six figures to pay their loans back. My older brother paid his medical school loans off his first year in business.

I'll paraphrase something JO is famous for saying -

"As long as I have resumes on my desk, I am paying my pilots too much".

 

[meritflyer]

It actually doesn't look like he compared the two, but rather provided another professional training environment and how the high cost of training restricts the number of potential professionals for that career. Hence reducing supply, and increasing demand.

It's academic standards that restrict supply in medical schools, not the costs - something flying commercial airplanes lacks.

 

[surreal1221]

It's academic standards that restrict supply in medical schools, not the costs - something flying commercial airplanes lacks.

Now that there is a debatable comment.

Todd referenced the cost restrictions associated with the initial training for a medical profession.

He didn't directly compare it with flight training in his post, which is why I bothered to point that out to you.

The debate in regards to standards in the medical profession being the thing that restricts new members to that profession as opposed to the cost is an interesting one. I'll follow up after I'm done eating my sandwich in Allentown.

Okay - now that I'm back on the laptop.

There are many elements that may restrict the supply of applicants/recruits into any profession. No single element should be pinned as the sole restrictive cause.

It could be said that some people who want to fly for a living, and never end up completing their private never satisfied the standards that were set. Sad, but it does happen.

While it could also be said that some people who want to fly for a living are unable to because the financial demands to get there are out of their reach. The past few years have been an amazing time to own a flight school, with credit being absolutely worthless any person could get a 50 thousand dollar or more loan to follow their "Dream."

I honestly think those days are over, especially considering that SLM is wising up to the fact that most of these people can't afford the payments, on top of their other debt load. That, combined with the obvious debt to income ratio for the average college graduate now going after some flight training is just not worth the liability of providing money and never seeing the return.

The very same can be said for medical school(s). I'm not comparing Flight training and medical school(s), but rather the two similarities. Some can't cut it standards wise, and some can't satisfy their desire due to the financial requirements.

 

[zmiller4]

So I'm not too sure how you came to the conclusion that he is out of step with his fellow pilots by not recognizing the threat that exists.

He consistently defends having 250hr guys at the airlines. With a very few exceptions, there's only one way that a 250hr pilot gets to an airline...a jet course or similar pay-for-job scheme.

 

[joliet]

He consistently defends having 250hr guys at the airlines. With a very few exceptions, there's only one way that a 250hr pilot gets to an airline...a jet course or similar pay-for-job scheme.

Really?

This 230 hour guy did it without either.

 

[Cptnchia]

Really?

This 230 hour guy did it without either.

That's why he had this disclaimer:

With a very few exceptions, there's only one way that a 250hr pilot gets to an airline....

You are the exception!

 

[zmiller4]

Really?

This 230 hour guy did it without either.

Good for you, seriously. But you're one of the rare exceptions (I know there's at least one other here who will probably chime in).

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

He consistently defends having 250hr guys at the airlines. With a very few exceptions, there's only one way that a 250hr pilot gets to an airline...a jet course or similar pay-for-job scheme.

An RJ course is not a "pay-for-job scheme."

 

[zmiller4]

An RJ course is not a "pay-for-job scheme."

When it's staffed by and marketed in conjunction with an airline, essentially guarantees a job, and gets the under-qualified participants jobs over much more qualified applicants, it's not a good thing. Wouldn't you agree that advancement in this industry ought to be bsed on achievement and qualifications?

Any program that lets you pay to get a job over more qualified applicants is pay-for-job, imo.

 

[kellwolf]

An RJ course is not a "pay-for-job scheme."

I have to disagree. If a 250 hour guy can get hired with it and a 1000 hour CFI with 200 ME and 100 IMC can't, it's a pay for job course. That's the case here at Pinnacle now. I've tried to get a lot of my friends that were CFIs hired, and they were almost all told "Well, if you take this jet course, we'll interview you."

 

[bike21]

An RJ course is not a "pay-for-job scheme."

Not to mention some purported connections between JetU and PNCL hiring departments and kickbacks. I have nothing to back that up, but interesting nonetheless.

Either way, if airline 'A' is requiring you to go to an RJ course before hiring you it is PFJ. Or for a type rating for that matter.

 

[joliet]

Good for you, seriously. But you're one of the rare exceptions (I know there's at least one other here who will probably chime in).

Just had lunch with another 230 hour exception today.

 

[zmiller4]

Just had lunch with another 230 hour exception today.

I bet if you really tried, you could find dozens of you all...that's not the point. Across the board, there's a lot more wet commercial pilots at airlines who paid for a jet course than those who didn't. Turboprop operators and Mesa may be the exception.

 

[ftyflyboy]

So I hear that Pinnacle is to resume classes. How many classes and what kind of numbers are we talking about?

 

[Airdale]

You should have sat through my new hire class. The low time RJ Program pilots were blowing the well qualified pilots out of the water at times. Remember, most of these guys just finished getting their licenses, so their brain was still in a learning mode, whereas some others hadn't seriously cracked a manual in years. Also the younger generation picked up the glass cockpit a whole lot faster than some of the others. Made me sit back and seriously reevaluate low time pilots flying for the regionals...you can't judge them by just how many hours they have.

Dude, you're talking about book work. Honestly, thats all ground school is, its book work. Any idiot who can be educated should walk right through ground school. Sim training is a joke too as an FO because if you screw up, its okay, we'll just refresh the sim.

I had some guys in my class that were higher time guys upgrading. I initially thought some of them were idiots, because those with less experience, like myself, were grasping concepts in systems and memorizing QRH items more easily.

Yet, its when you get into the sim, or even better, the cockpit - with one of these higher time guys who you thought were idiots in training - that you realize that these guys have something none of the RJ fast track 250hr wonders have. EXPERIENCE and MATURITY behind the controls of an aircraft.

Congrats to the 250hr wonder kid and congrats to the Captains that will instruct him for the first 500hrs. Its sad that this industry has gotten so horrible, that they hire 250hr pilots over well qualified 121 experienced pilots. Thats pathetic. Proof that there is no respect for an Airline Captain anymore, nor the thousands of hours of good decisions he has made in his career. Let alone his poor FO.