Hawker 900XP down, 2/7/24

[inigo88]

I wonder what the guy on the jumpseat was thinking thtough that event. I didn't hear a peep. Ice cold.

I get the impression there are at least a couple flight test engineers in the passenger cabin as well, one guy goes to check on them at the end.

I imagine them all at their consoles when the airplane rolls inverted like:

 

[mikecweb]

They built a few Lear 29s, where did they go? Nobody knows. That's not true, none of them ever entered civilian service but you shouldn't assume they didn't live out useful lives. They were immediately snatched up by people who'd rather fly around at 51,000 feet for hours on end and not have anyone ask any questions about it.

They built 4. One was still flying down in Mexico last time I looked

 

[Bob Ridpath]

So, what happened before the days of simulators (IDK, DC3-7, Electra, etc.)? I'm sure even now that simulators can't replicate in any meaningful way upset or unusual attitudes and the focus is on preventing a stall (or whatever) before onset. Still, as I read accident reports there are rare occasions when training beyond the ordinary might have been a good thing.

I get that no one is gonna' take a 30+ million dollar airplane out to see how it handles and to practice recovery. I'm curious, though, how you guys and gals train for the unlikely situation in which you might find yourself one day.

 

[knot4u]

So, what happened before the days of simulators (IDK, DC3-7, Electra, etc.)? I'm sure even now that simulators can't replicate in any meaningful way upset or unusual attitudes and the focus is on preventing a stall (or whatever) before onset. Still, as I read accident reports there are rare occasions when training beyond the ordinary might have been a good thing.

I get that no one is gonna' take a 30+ million dollar airplane out to see how it handles and to practice recovery. I'm curious, though, how you guys and gals train for the unlikely situation in which you might find yourself one day.

They don't teach worst case, they teach how to avoid ever approaching the edge of the envelope, whether or not that's a good idea is up to you. Most airline pilots are not trained to perform air shows. Most military pilots will happily do an air show and consider it a weekend vacation.

This is how they used to do it. It's not a joke, this is in a museum somewhere...

 

[knot4u]

We had a Link trainer at my A/P school. My teachers thought I was a pretty fart smeller and free labor and recruited me into their effort to at least get the thing kind of operating but I was a rambunctious sort of young man and I had a full time job plus a side gig, and my yearning to sow my oats and an air racer I was just getting to know was a siren song. It was a tumultuous time to be sure and I'm still exhausted from the entirety of it, but I still sometimes wonder about that Link trainer and what happened to it. I sometimes wish I'd of throttled back during that very important part of my life and had someone explain my perspective in terms that actually made sense. But I was incorrigible and determined to follow my own path...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_xwnb3cymc

 

[DE727UPS]

That's a good question. They did training in the airplane but not sure how far they took a stall. Probably just to stall warning and left it at that. They would never have done unusual attitudes in a transport category jet, I don't think. At least not to much of an extreme. In 88 I flew Convair's and we did all the training in the plane. V1cuts (engine failure on takeoff). It was an eye opener but we had no cargo so super light. It was kinda fun, actually.

 

[5Right_5Left]

Good for them putting you guys through that course!

(Hey, did I hear you’re now at the place where my old buddy Jerry was Chief Pilot? Flying with Adam?)

Definitely a good choice to do the training and I think our insurance covered most of it which is even better. That I am. It wasn’t a far move from across the field which is always nice. The X+ is an awesome machine (most of the time) and it’s always nice to go from Michigan to Central Florida in just over two hours at M0.88-0.90 at 450 or 470. Spent some time at 510 on my first flight which was a bit wild.

 

[SteveC]

Definitely a good choice to do the training and I think our insurance covered most of it which is even better. That I am. It wasn’t a far move from across the field which is always nice. The X+ is an awesome machine (most of the time) and it’s always nice to go from Michigan to Central Florida in just over two hours at M0.88-0.90 at 450 or 470. Spent some time at 510 on my first flight which was a bit wild.

Heck of a performer, and a very pretty aircraft. Enjoy!

[Tell Adam (and Megan) I said Hi.]

 

[Autothrust Blue]

UPRT in a level D sim is great for muscle memory, and education. But a sim can't simulate the real startle factor and physiological effects when recovering from an upset state. Especially when seconds matter and the first action taken determines the fate of the outcome. It would be best to supplement any Part 142 UPRT training with UPRT training in an airplane. Get comfortable with it.

Not to mention that a hexapod base can't generate g, at least not anything more than transiently, and certainly not to the amount that might be encountered during the ensuing recovery—which is true not just for this sort of (intentional) upset, but also the unintentional kind.

It's amazing how much more one might learn from 30 minutes in a Decathlon versus the multi-million dollar EET simulator hardware and software upgrades, but anyway.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Not to mention that a hexapod base can't generate g, at least not anything more than transiently, and certainly not to the amount that might be encountered during the ensuing recovery—which is true not just for this sort of (intentional) upset, but also the unintentional kind.

It's amazing how much more one might learn from 30 minutes in a Decathlon versus the multi-million dollar EET simulator hardware and software upgrades, but anyway.

I did upset recovery a few months ago in an L-39 and Saberliner. That is an experience that everyone should have to feel the G’s and proper recovery. I did not like seeing the ground in the split-s demonstration and would‘ve most likely over stressed the aircraft as I pulled through 4 Gs. I’ll stick to push, roll, power.

 

[Itchy]

They don't teach worst case, they teach how to avoid ever approaching the edge of the envelope, whether or not that's a good idea is up to you. Most airline pilots are not trained to perform air shows. Most military pilots will happily do an air show and consider it a weekend vacation.

This is how they used to do it. It's not a joke, this is in a museum somewhere...
View attachment 76444

It’s (or one exactly like it, including the desk) sitting in a sim bay at Flight Safety DFW.

 

[form810]

Some Lears require stall tests with factory approved test pilots if too many leading edge attaching screws are removed. The only times I recall removing Lear leading edges would have been a "12-year" inspection, but we'd also completely remove the wing. We always had to have an approved test pilot come out and put it through the full flight envelope after we reassembled everything. I never went on any of the rides but apparently things could get pretty hairy. The cool thing about doing that is some these contract test pilots were retired factory pilots and sometimes they'd be reunited with an airplane they'd made the airplanes very first flight in. Such was the case with a LR28 I happened to be involved in, we did all of the work and presented to the test pilot. He was very happy to have a chance to fly this airplane again. He took it up stalled it a bunch of times and came back and reported that one wing was falling off too soon, then he suggested we adjust the spoiler control rod by one turn. Then he took it back up and repeated his test sequence and came back and suggested that perhaps the first adjustment was a bit too aggressive and perhaps if we backed that control rod off by a 1/4 turn it might be perfect, so we did and off he went again into the wild blue yonder. This time when he landed he said the airplane handled perfectly and signed the log entry. Now I'm not entirely sure if he was as much of a perfectionist as he seemed to be or perhaps he just really liked flying a LR28 again on someone elses dime. LR28, look it up.

Indeed. All the Lears I ever flew always needed post-leading-edge-removal stall checks (that's LR23-LR60). Those birds were fast for a reason.

The reason for this is stall + yaw = spin. Let me say that again for the uninitiated: STALL + YAW = SPIN. It's a real easy equation. Know it. Use it. That knowledge will keep you alive some day.

When the leading edge of a supercritical wing (or even some non-super-critical wings) is effed up, you are going to get yaw that you may not expect. So that you can expect it, good test pilots go out and identify necessary changes to the yaw induction components introduced by the recent wing work. They come back and tell the wrenches how to adjust things so that YOU will get a clean breaking aircraft instead of a naturally spin-inducing airplane.

Say thank you!

Also, really... go back and do some reading. Enough reading that TRULY, REALLY understand why spins happen, and how to deal with them if they do.

Just the other day, I got rolled 170 degrees by preceding big boy air traffic. It was essentially a non-issue. But that's NOT how most would have experienced that event. I've flown enough little airplanes upside down and sideways that I knew precisely what to do. It shook the Pax, but we flew in and landed, so no harm, no foul.

These kinds of departures can happen any day of any week. Don't pretend and convince yourself that they don't.

Be prepared. When you've trained properly for emergencies, those events are NOT emergencies. They are just another day flying. They are just another, almost instinctual reaction to a UA. Everyone is happy. You continue to get paid.

Don't go gently into that good night as did the pilots of Ethiopian and Lion. The unwritten part of BOTH those "accident" is that both of those "Captains" went into the ground with the throttles in TOGA.

 

[knot4u]

Indeed. All the Lears I ever flew always needed post-leading-edge-removal stall checks (that's LR23-LR60). Those birds were fast for a reason.

The reason for this is stall + yaw = spin. Let me say that again for the uninitiated: STALL + YAW = SPIN. It's a real easy equation. Know it. Use it. That knowledge will keep you alive some day.

When the leading edge of a supercritical wing (or even some non-super-critical wings) is effed up, you are going to get yaw that you may not expect. So that you can expect it, good test pilots go out and identify necessary changes to the yaw induction components introduced by the recent wing work. They come back and tell the wrenches how to adjust things so that YOU will get a clean breaking aircraft instead of a naturally spin-inducing airplane.

Say thank you!

Thanks for your lofty explanation but I'm fairly certain most folks around here are smart enough to have figured out what I was saying about the wings and the spoilers. The one glaring thing I didn't mention was whether the spoiler push rods were adjusted on one wing or both. I did that on purpose and left a portion of the story out because apparently I'm a troll.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF6nEPk_w3c

 

[form810]

Thanks for your lofty explanation but I'm fairly certain most folks around here are smart enough to have figured out what I was saying about the wings and the spoilers. The one glaring thing I didn't mention was whether the spoiler push rods were adjusted on one wing or both. I did that on purpose and left a portion of the story out because apparently I'm a troll.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF6nEPk_w3c

Why do you hate me so? I was complimenting you. Did you not get that? I appreciate a great deal of what you have to say. Really, I do.

 

[Bob Ridpath]

Thanks for your lofty explanation but I'm fairly certain most folks around here are smart enough to have figured out what I was saying about the wings and the spoilers. The one glaring thing I didn't mention was whether the spoiler push rods were adjusted on one wing or both. I did that on purpose and left a portion of the story out because apparently I'm a troll.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF6nEPk_w3c

I might hope to die in such a place and time, long after my pups have crossed their Rainbow Bridge and I am finally alone.

 

[Boris Badenov]

You're both pretty. Now let me tell you about the time @CK sent me to do the stall test on a Hawker with a 1985 manual and all the best wishes in the world...

 

[knot4u]

Indeed. All the Lears I ever flew always needed post-leading-edge-removal stall checks (that's LR23-LR60). Those birds were fast for a reason.

The reason for this is stall + yaw = spin. Let me say that again for the uninitiated: STALL + YAW = SPIN. It's a real easy equation. Know it. Use it. That knowledge will keep you alive some day.

When the leading edge of a supercritical wing (or even some non-super-critical wings) is effed up, you are going to get yaw that you may not expect. So that you can expect it, good test pilots go out and identify necessary changes to the yaw induction components introduced by the recent wing work. They come back and tell the wrenches how to adjust things so that YOU will get a clean breaking aircraft instead of a naturally spin-inducing airplane.

Say thank you!

Also, really... go back and do some reading. Enough reading that TRULY, REALLY understand why spins happen, and how to deal with them if they do.

Just the other day, I got rolled 170 degrees by preceding big boy air traffic. It was essentially a non-issue. But that's NOT how most would have experienced that event. I've flown enough little airplanes upside down and sideways that I knew precisely what to do. It shook the Pax, but we flew in and landed, so no harm, no foul.

These kinds of departures can happen any day of any week. Don't pretend and convince yourself that they don't.

Be prepared. When you've trained properly for emergencies, those events are NOT emergencies. They are just another day flying. They are just another, almost instinctual reaction to a UA. Everyone is happy. You continue to get paid.

Don't go gently into that good night as did the pilots of Ethiopian and Lion. The unwritten part of BOTH those "accident" is that both of those "Captains" went into the ground with the throttles in TOGA.

I reread your post. You got unexpectedly rolled upside down and it's no big deal? I'm fine with people that fly airplanes that can roll at 450 degrees/second, you can buy one, it's called the Gamebird, It's a pretty cool airplane. You say a lot of things and never offer any proof, what were you flying and where did you experience such a "violent" upset? You refuse to give any indication of what sort of flying and who you might be flying for but you refuse to give any info about yourself. I'm a superfluous arrogant •, but I'm 100% honest about what I've done, where I've been and the fact that I'm unsure that I have an intellectual advantage over anyone, you assume you're the smartest person in the room, and that makes me happy. Now I know I'm not the biggest •. Good luck.

 

[knot4u]

You're both pretty. Now let me tell you about the time @CK sent me to do the stall test on a Hawker with a 1985 manual and all the best wishes in the world...

I'm so handsome I break mirrors when I see them, the stitches on my knuckles are getting spendy but Urgent Care places take visa.

 

[form810]

I reread your post. You got unexpectedly rolled upside down and it's no big deal? I'm fine with people that fly airplanes that can roll at 450 degrees/second, you can buy one, it's called the Gamebird, It's a pretty cool airplane. You say a lot of things and never offer any proof, what were you flying and where did you experience such a "violent" upset? You refuse to give any indication of what sort of flying and who you might be flying for but you refuse to give any info about yourself. I'm a superfluous arrogant •, but I'm 100% honest about what I've done, where I've been and the fact that I'm unsure that I have an intellectual advantage over anyone, you assume you're the smartest person in the room, and that makes me happy. Now I know I'm not the biggest •. Good luck.

There's this thing called the internet. It's a dry and harsh place where one's soul can find no purchase. It terrifies me. It presents many dangers I understand better than most. It presents more dangers I have not yet anticipated or identified. Therefore, I tread around it's edges carefully and with great caution and trepidation. Consider me a bow hunter hunting wart hogs.

Also, it was NOT upside down. It was about 170 degrees. That's sideways....almost.

 

[mikecweb]

Cool. Anyways the names of the pilots have been released. RIP.