Captain Positions Offered to New Hires

[🦈💜]

My dude, if we all told the whole truth and nothing but the truth in a interview none of us would have jobs.

Play the game and win the prize.

This is the exact example of what I am not and refuse to be.

 

[bLizZuE]

In 2008 at a Colgan interview I was asked about my worst day in aviation. I told a story about continued VFR into IFR while I had students on the airplane. I had to get an IFR clearance and shoot an approach and it freaked me out. I learned it wasn’t a good story to tell. I never told that story again, but I never lied about it either. (HR at Colgan told me I lacked the self confidence to be an airline Captain.)

You don’t have to be an open book in an interview. You just have to tell the right stories.

 

[🦈💜]

Define “legit university.” Seriously, I await your response. An accredited university is an accredited university.

Yes, and what exactly does that mean to you? Do you really want to dive down the accreditation rabbit hole with me? Do you actually understand what it means and what it doesn't, the politics behind it, and the process controls that need to be demonstrated?

It has little to do with the value of the education, and a lot to do with . . . checking boxes.

Interview prep can be great for organizing your thoughts and pulling out stories and polishing up the formatting/presentation. I’d be willing to be all your stories are there, you’ve been in the industry long enough.

I’ve never had a prep company tell me to make anything up. Ironically the job I prepped for is the one I didn’t get.

I have heard lots of stories from people who I consider close personal friends, as well as FOs I've flown with, CAs I've chatted with, and so on. I have lots of datapoints on the issue. See also:

My dude, if we all told the whole truth and nothing but the truth in a interview none of us would have jobs.

Play the game and win the prize.

I don’t think anyone is being sanctimonious or preachy, they’re just disagreeing with your outlook on some of these things, because I don’t think they are accurate.

I welcome disagreement and dissent. It's literally a part of my decisionmaking process and how I approach the world. However, I'm not particularly interested in being morally judged and called out for my opinions or mocked for my moral and ethical choices, no matter how 'crazy' they are to the people in question.

The alternative, which I tend to avoid, is engaging in comparative morality, which is the most pointless (and harmful) of all the battles that humanity fights. And yet here I am.

The airline industry isn’t the tech industry (thank god.)

I see this a lot, and I generally let it go. But in this case, especially as we're talking about the tech industry in a specific period of time, I'm just going to ask:

Why do you say that?

I have no idea what this means.

It means this: You know those "minority" candidates that cisgender heterosexual white males with crew cuts and family connections are always railing against on various fora? You know how they get hired?

They are immensely qualified.

I see posts all the time in the various female aviator groups I'm in that go something like this:

"I just got my second masters in aeronautical engineering from Legit University, won the aerobatic contest at Johnstown, got my gold seal, and awards from x,y,z,p,d,q. I'm coming up on 1,500 hours—do you think I'm qualified to apply at $Regional?"

"Congratulations! I think you're in the right spot. Just keep working hard and studying. Have you considered a PhD or two?"

"Nice job. I went postdoc after retiring from the military, and I just hit 8,000 hours. I'm hoping to get a call from BLAH Airlines."

"Good luck! I didn't hear from BLAH until I got my second PhD. I did get my CJO, but I'm still waiting on a class date. I'm currently trying to find people so that I can resign my board position at the Orphanarium."

... and so on.

You very likely have literally no idea how hard many of those women (and, from the black people I know, pretty much every minority) work in the massive uphill battle that is our current social structure. I'm not even including myself in this. Not by a long shot. When I see a woman get hired at a legacy, she is almost always significantly more qualified than I.

And yet Jack L. Britches III who came to aviation "because I heard it paid well for not a lot of work" can roll in with a nice suit, drop a few zingers, and slide right in.

Don't be offended if I drop out of this discussion. It's on a trajectory to become a dogpile and I have much more interesting things to do with my time than roll around in the mud.

 

[T/O w/FSII]

When I see a woman get hired at a legacy, she is almost always significantly more qualified than I.

I mean, I just watched a 24yr old girl go from skydiving to a regional to a Delta 330 FO in 1 years time. No college. 1 year. That’s the reality.

Currently if you can breath and get through an interview you got the job.

Not sure if those examples you made up are accurate anymore.

 

[Roger Roger]

@Acrofox
I get on an intellectual level your resistance against doing the interview prep pony show, though I don’t on a personal level get it I can see where you’re coming from. If that makes any sense at all. Is there any possibility of connecting with someone who has made it through the hiring process at a major, and is more acquainted with the world from your perspective who could give you a reality check while coming from an angle that sort of gets you? It’s clear that not much coming from this crowd is going to help you because for the most part our frames of reference are too different, but I like to think most (all?) of us want to see you succeed.

 

[🦈💜]

In 2008 at a Colgan interview I was asked about my worst day in aviation. I told a story about continued VFR into IFR while I had students on the airplane. I had to get an IFR clearance and shoot an approach and it freaked me out. I learned it wasn’t a good story to tell. I never told that story again, but I never lied about it either. (HR at Colgan told me I lacked the self confidence to be an airline Captain.)

Frankly, that's a problem with their hiring process, not with you. I respect you for telling that story at your interview, and if I was the interviewer, I would give you marks for integrity and honesty. It indicates an attitude that's open to a just, reporting culture, to finding and addressing systemic or individual problems and fixing them.

The last thing I want in an airline captain—or an FO—is unjustified self-confidence, because that's how we get turn 150 people and 120,000lbs of metal into a smoking hole.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

JSYK, I interviewed at AS in 2021, and WN twice this year (and I'm done trying with the latter.)

I've had apps in at UA and DL for six+ years.

A> Nobody requires degrees at this point.

B> If I'd started a legit degree program from a legit university, I'd problably still be slogging my way through it right now, at best, assuming I hadn't had to drop out due to lack of time, and:
B2> If I'd just bought a degree from a diploma mill like a lot of folks to "ChEcK ThE BoX," I would have sacrificed my integrity to do it.

C> Yes, I did do interview prep for the last two interviews, yes, I've done CP M&Gs. I have a bunch of honest, heart-felt letters of recommendation from people that I've actually flown with, who actually had good things to say about me and my flying. I don't have a single letter that I wrote for someone else to sign, nor have I pestered people I barely know to get them. I have numerous honest internal recs.

D> In my interviews, I tell the truth, I am myself, and I don't tell the made up stories that some interview prep places feed their candidates. I don't exaggerate or tell them "just what I think they want to hear."*

E> I have two checkride failures: My instrument rating 15 years ago, and my initial ATP oral. Other than that, my record is completely clean—I haven't even received a stern talking to.

I have a lot more to say, but I've noticed that many folks here tend to get sanctimonious and preachy when someone disagrees with them, and discard anything the other person has to say. And as I'm posting this on a rare day off, I literally have better ways to spend my time.

*(Outside of the airlines, I have interviewed several dozen times in tech, and the only time I didn't get an offer was when I interviewed with PDI/Dreamworks. Their concern was that I wasn't invested in the feature film industry, which was true. I actually regret that a little because the project they were working on was right up my alley (HTTYD), and I am now currently very into 3D animation, rigging and other TD work, which is my major hobby/passion at the moment. I've also sat across the table on hundreds of interviews, and hired dozens of candidates who almost all excelled. I've never seen a process more geared to hire straight, cis white guys than airline interviews.)

I saw something on the other site (might be bs) that something like 95% of United new hires have the college degree. It’s definitely not required, but still desired for some reason.

Sometimes you just have to play the game. Cooperate and graduate. Being a martyr isn’t doing you any favors.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

You ask a straight white guy and theyll probably say the opposite. Dont carry that baggage into an interview, airlines WANT to hire people now.

Yeah, but every new hire class photo posted on social media proves that to be a cop out. Usually from people who haven’t asserted themselves.

 

[JordanD]

Yes, and what exactly does that mean to you? Do you really want to dive down the accreditation rabbit hole with me? Do you actually understand what it means and what it doesn't, the politics behind it, and the process controls that need to be demonstrated?

It has little to do with the value of the education, and a lot to do with . . . checking boxes.

I'm just more curious what you consider a legit university versus a "diploma mill." Like specific examples? It seems like its discrediting a lot of work people have done to as you put it merely "check a box" while you have said in the past that you have no interest in doing it.

And yet Jack L. Britches III who came to aviation "because I heard it paid well for not a lot of work" can roll in with a nice suit, drop a few zingers, and slide right in.

I'm sorry but this is just wrong.

Don't be offended if I drop out of this discussion. It's on a trajectory to become a dogpile and I have much more interesting things to do with my time than roll around in the mud.

Offended? No, but I think it's pretty lame to walk in, throw a bunch of grenades, then leave.

 

[JordanD]

I saw something on the other site (might be bs) that something like 95% of United new hires have the college degree. It’s definitely not required, but still desired for some reason.

Sometimes you just have to play the game. Cooperate and graduate. Being a martyr isn’t doing you any favors.

I threw in an app at UPS several years ago as soon as I met the minimum qualifications on the site (degree preferred). I think the rejection email came before I even hit the submit button. Exaggerating, but I believe it was actually within 10 minutes.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I saw something on the other site (might be bs) that something like 95% of United new hires have the college degree. It’s definitely not required, but still desired for some reason.

Sometimes you just have to play the game. Cooperate and graduate. Being a martyr isn’t doing you any favors.

You have to earn the right to complain. If you haven’t at least attempted to complete the steps that are widely known to aid in your success, you shoulder a fair amount of the blame. If you’ve sucked it up and did the unpleasant things that we all know will assist you down the path of success and it still doesn’t work, well that’s a raw deal and complain away.

 

[Kingairer]

Yeah, but every new hire class photo posted on social media proves that to be a cop out. Usually from people who haven’t asserted themselves.

I would guess, and its only a guess, that the class photos represent a similar percentage to the demographics that apply. If you didnt get hired, I would look within and not blame it on race or gender.

 

[bLizZuE]

I threw in an app at UPS several years ago as soon as I met the minimum qualifications on the site (degree preferred). I think the rejection email came before I even hit the submit button. Exaggerating, but I believe it was actually within 10 minutes.

A long time ago I looked up the interview gouge and it included questions like “look at this electrical circuit and describe the resistance.” And I knew I was too stupid to work there.

 

[JordanD]

A long time ago I looked up the interview gouge and it included questions like “look at this electrical circuit and describe the resistance.” And I knew I was too stupid to work there.

I'm so glad interviews have moved away from that crap, which has helped me fly a plane exactly zero times. All of them I've been in recently seem to have struck a pretty decent balance of "what work did you put in to get here, here's a scenario where we try to gauge if you're a person with empathy and leadership or not, and what setbacks have you faced and what did you learn/how did you overcome them?"

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I would guess, and its only a guess, that the class photos represent a similar percentage to the demographics that apply. If you didnt get hired, I would look within and not blame it on race or gender.

I would agree, my statement was more that if a straight white guy says they’re at a disadvantage, they’re full of it.

 

[🦈💜]

I'm just more curious what you consider a legit university versus a "diploma mill." Like specific examples? It seems like its discrediting a lot of work people have done to as you put it merely "check a box" while you have said in the past that you have no interest in doing it.

It's not about accreditation, it's about academic rigor.

What has that "work" done to legitimately make the student a better person, or to benefit humanity? Modern coursework that lacks the aforementioned rigor is strictly knowledge banking, and submitting to it is merely demonstrating compliance. And the students aren't doing it to learn, they're doing it to check a box. The institutions don't care about the knowledge imparted—they, too, are checking boxes.

Yes, I have a problem with that. It's absolute madness, and if you can't see that take a step back and look at it from a wider angle.

And yet Jack L. Britches III who came to aviation "because I heard it paid well for not a lot of work" can roll in with a nice suit, drop a few zingers, and slide right in.

I'm sorry but this is just wrong.

Actual FO of mine. Long flight deck discussion. Name changed.

Offended? No, but I think it's pretty lame to walk in, throw a bunch of grenades, then leave.

I didn't chuck grenades, I allowed myself to express a bit of bitterness in a moment of weakness, and I've been responding since.

It won't happen again.

[Last response. (I hope)]

 

[Maurus]

JSYK, I interviewed at AS in 2021, and WN twice this year (and I'm done trying with the latter.)

I've had apps in at UA and DL for six+ years.

You have been getting interviews at AS and WN. I wonder if you need to have someone look at your app for UA and DL. There could be a gotcha in your app that it preventing it from actually being seen. I know this because I have gone over apps with people and I have seen all but one get an interview not long after. I wouldn't pay $200+ for some hack to look at your app and tell you basic info (that was my experience). Get someone you trust to give it a hard look and to even help with verbiage about your checkride failures and such.

 

[Maurus]

I saw something on the other site (might be bs) that something like 95% of United new hires have the college degree. It’s definitely not required, but still desired for some reason.

Sometimes you just have to play the game. Cooperate and graduate. Being a martyr isn’t doing you any favors.

Eh, I helped a person get on at my shop without a degree. It was right after they dropped the requirement. I honestly don't think it is a huge deal anymore.

 

[Ian_J]

[Last response. (I hope)]

I hope not. From an outsiders view of this conversation what I see is people interested in your success. If your goal is to be at an airline up the rung from your current one, these folks seem interested in helping. That says a lot about you and about them. I’d be willing to help as well if you’d take the help.

 

[JordanD]

I’d offer the anecdote that there’s a certain major I had an app in with for 7+ years, reviewed, updated, and never heard so much of a peep from them, yet I’ve heard of people getting CJOs there with incomplete apps. Sometimes it happens.