A lot of people (and not necessarily this generation exclusively) seem to not really grasp a lot of history is… “complicated” to say the least. Even the “good guys” have done a lot of not great stuff, but people are so keen to categorize everything into “good guys/bad guys” narratives, or want historical movies to flat out explain if someone is a hero or a villain when that’s rarely how it has ever worked.
121 guys, how does this happen? (AKA,Oh Delta)
- Thread starter T/O w/FSII
- Start date
spbrian
Well-Known Member
Thread creep back to topic.. sorry...
Went phnl-klax last night with a 10pm takeoff from phnl. Gasper air in the back of the plane was weak and by the time boarding was completed, it was uncomfortable warm, apu cooled slightly but didn't make a dent.
Taxiing out for takeoff it didn't get any better and by takeoff time it was.. hot...
Got me thinking about how crappy of an experience for the people in the back it would be if it was same plane different place.
Went phnl-klax last night with a 10pm takeoff from phnl. Gasper air in the back of the plane was weak and by the time boarding was completed, it was uncomfortable warm, apu cooled slightly but didn't make a dent.
Taxiing out for takeoff it didn't get any better and by takeoff time it was.. hot...
Got me thinking about how crappy of an experience for the people in the back it would be if it was same plane different place.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
We took off from BFI a couple weeks ago, pack was putting out warm air. Just assumed it was too hot there, next time they fired it up the cabin filled with smoke. Turned out the pack was on its last legs.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
What airplane?
Being from small town in California where it was primarily Mexican, Portuguese, Hmong and the garden variety of basic whites and blacks, imagine my surprise when Eric Hernandez was an Asian student who didn't speak Spanish at all and really broken English.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Had a turn into LAS, I think it was somewhere about 115 deg on the ground. Anyway, I pre-cooled everything by selecting full cold about 10-15 mins prior to TOD, left it there the whole way down, and we kept the APU going with packs on full cold on the ground. Did walk-around and felt like I was going to melt, but cabin was still nice and frosty cold when I got back up there and took a quick temp check. But man, as soon as we got the engines going on the way out, that thing heated up like a mofo. Even discussed doing the supplemental where you fire the APU back up, kill the engine bleeds, and put the packs to HIGH. But fortunately we were quickly to the runway. I don't think it got comfortable again until we were almost to cruise altitude, even after just a few mins on the ground like that. After doing literally everything I know of that is possible to keep it cool (which I will admit isn't much ). I guess engine bleeds at idle power just suck at running the packs.
). I guess engine bleeds at idle power just suck at running the packs.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Had a turn into LAS, I think it was somewhere about 115 deg on the ground. Anyway, I pre-cooled everything by selecting full cold about 10-15 mins prior to TOD, left it there the whole way down, and we kept the APU going with packs on full cold on the ground. Did walk-around and felt like I was going to melt, but cabin was still nice and frosty cold when I got back up there and took a quick temp check. But man, as soon as we got the engines going on the way out, that thing heated up like a mofo. Even discussed doing the supplemental where you fire the APU back up, kill the engine bleeds, and put the packs to HIGH. But fortunately we were quickly to the runway. I don't think it got comfortable again until we were almost to cruise altitude, even after just a few mins on the ground like that. After doing literally everything I know of that is possible to keep it cool (which I will admit isn't much
Yes, this:
"Even discussed doing the supplemental where you fire the APU back up, kill the engine bleeds, and put the packs to HIGH."
Vegas? I'll do it if it's above 100 deg. After start leave the APU on, engine bleeds off, apu on, high auto high. Reconfigure in the before takeoff checklist, which I'll call for about 2 minutes before takeoff. My line check 2 yrs ago the checkairman made a point you can do that procedure anytime on the ground, taxiing in to the gate or taxiing to takeoff.
Just don't forget to reconfigure the bleeds for takeoff!
///AMG
Well-Known Member
The ever-elusive "accidental bleed off takeoff"
Perhaps a slightly better dumb mistake than the "accidental bleed on takeoff"
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
You see the latest brakes memo?
What an embarrassment.
What an embarrassment.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I'd say that if your normal braking technique involves stopping halfway down the runway, it probably isn't the right technique for hot/high/fast landings with a full load of people. But what do I know? I did grow up in a plane with fairly weak brakes and a propensity for brake fires/melted fuze plugs/etc....so over the years (in that plane), I have made a habit of not stomping, and generally not using them for much of anything above 100 knots unless really needed. Too many other drag devices that are more effective at high speed (especially in our plane).
Was just there in a 757 about a week after the incident. Took a lengthy taxi out delay because we needed full length for takeoff. I briefed the captain that I was going to leave the APU on and run the packs with it. My nerdiness kicked in and looking at the duct pressure it was an obvious difference: 30psi off the APU vs 15 with the engines at idle. Cabin stayed around 74 the whole way. Finally tower moved us up to hold short saying we would be next. Switched everything back to the engines and it started heating up quickly. They had lied to us. 10 min later they call from the back that it's getting hot. I was going to ask to fire the APU back up but luckily we got the takeoff clearance shortly after. Using the APU makes a huge difference.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Unless it's a short runway like SNA or BUR, if you are landing and getting on the brakes, you are doing it wrong.
As long as it's a decently long runway (7500 or greater), my hot weather landing:
NO Autobrakes
Flaps 30, maybe 40 if winds aren't bad.
Max reverse thrust (full, beyond detent 2).
Do not touch brakes until below 100 knots. Now come on the brakes.
CA advantage is the HUD. I see the deceleration carrot. Upon landing, I see in the vertical direction 1, 2, 3, and MAX. It shows the "equivalent" braking. By merely cranking out full reverse thrust, the deceleration carrot shows the equiavalent of Autobrake 2.5 to 3. As you slow more, then reverse thrust isn't as effective, and the carrot starts coming towards 2. Waaaay too many times I see FOs land with no AB, touchdown, get the reverse out, but then get on the brakes. The carrot INSTANTLY goes towards AB MAX - the equivalent deceleration to max autobrake use. Sometimes, even beyond that AB MAX. I tell some guys that, they can't believe it. "I was gentle on the brakes, it didn't feel that bad."
Yeah, but it is.
If it's gusty, I do AB 2, and max reverse thrust and leave AB 2 on, max reverse on, all the way to ~60-80 kts and then override the brakes. Your AB will initially kick on after touchdown, helping in a cross wind. Once reverse is out, AB lets up as the deceleration is beyond decel 2, and then comes on slightly again as the plane slows and maintains a decel of AB 2 the entire way with the TRs helping. This also helps reduce brake temps.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
There are enough strange similarities between the 73 and the F/A-18 (fuel burn rate being a notable one), I wouldn't be surprised if that 100 knot figure makes sense in both. Like you said, I pretty much don't even think about wheel brakes until the 100 knot callout (unless we are talking somewhere short, as you mentioned). We actually got brake energy charts in the pocket checklist of the Super Hornet/Growler eventually, that help evaluate if you have given yourself potential hot brakes. Primarily of use after an aborted takeoff, but you can of course use the same data for landing (its just GW and brake application speed, maybe corrected for DA, can't recall). Lo and behold, in pretty much any acceptable landing GW, anything below 100 knots is well outside the danger zone. I imagine engineers add enough braking but no more, relative to the expected max GW landing of a given airplane. Which would sort of normalize the comparison.
The ever-elusive "accidental bleed off takeoff"
Perhaps a slightly better dumb mistake than the "accidental bleed on takeoff"
Could always do a bleeds off-improved takeoff in order to keep running the packs off the APU. Configure the bleeds/packs for takeoff in a C pattern on the overhead, Deconfigure it during climb check in a reverse C pattern. Easy enough.
KLB
Well-Known Member
Had a turn into LAS, I think it was somewhere about 115 deg on the ground. Anyway, I pre-cooled everything by selecting full cold about 10-15 mins prior to TOD, left it there the whole way down, and we kept the APU going with packs on full cold on the ground. Did walk-around and felt like I was going to melt, but cabin was still nice and frosty cold when I got back up there and took a quick temp check. But man, as soon as we got the engines going on the way out, that thing heated up like a mofo. Even discussed doing the supplemental where you fire the APU back up, kill the engine bleeds, and put the packs to HIGH. But fortunately we were quickly to the runway. I don't think it got comfortable again until we were almost to cruise altitude, even after just a few mins on the ground like that. After doing literally everything I know of that is possible to keep it cool (which I will admit isn't much
I don't even transition the bleeds from the APU to the engine until passing 10,000ft on the little jet I fly. The engine does a fine job of maintaining a comfortable cabin. Keeping the APU running and handling the bleeds allows us a little better engine performance and is one less step to have to do in case of engine failure.
There was also a charter company that operated a fleet of them that were going through ACM like crazy by taking off with the engine bleeds on.
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
Yes, yes they do…APU + high packs is the way to live your best 737 Lyfe.Had a turn into LAS, I think it was somewhere about 115 deg on the ground. Anyway, I pre-cooled everything by selecting full cold about 10-15 mins prior to TOD, left it there the whole way down, and we kept the APU going with packs on full cold on the ground. Did walk-around and felt like I was going to melt, but cabin was still nice and frosty cold when I got back up there and took a quick temp check. But man, as soon as we got the engines going on the way out, that thing heated up like a mofo. Even discussed doing the supplemental where you fire the APU back up, kill the engine bleeds, and put the packs to HIGH. But fortunately we were quickly to the runway. I don't think it got comfortable again until we were almost to cruise altitude, even after just a few mins on the ground like that. After doing literally everything I know of that is possible to keep it cool (which I will admit isn't much
We got a memo about using only 9 o’clock position to prevent valve freezing or something another…I’ll see if I can find that later.
But APU bleed on taxi is my jam
I just click what intersection I want to exit and BTV handles the dirty work.
FLEXXXXXXXXXXXX!
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
AS routinely makes N off of 16R…which I did once in an -800 (and my wife still gives me grief for “that was some braking”).
Now I don’t ever plan on N, always P or Q…no need for jumping on the brakes.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Not to mention during peak departures, it buys you literally nothing. They'll just turn you left on 16C, HS 16L @ M and there you wait for the rest of time. Or they put you in north purgatory on T because, surprise cockbag, your gate is occupied
* I would buy that it is nice to not have to go to S ramp (unlike you northwestern southern jets) and then N ramp, but honestly, where you exit 16R has AFAIK no bearing on the latitude you enter the terminal ramp at.....
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