Pilatus with 7 Aboard Down Off The Coast of NC

[Roger Roger]

I wouldn’t call any stall in the PC12 docile… Once it stalls it doesn’t want to fly again. Takes some finesse and like others have said, the torque from adding back that 1200 HP will put you right back into a stall. Been 5 years since I’ve flown it but I do remember stalling it would be quite undesirable.

It behaves exactly how you’d expect a 10000 lb airplane with 1200 horses on the nose to behave. You have to be on the rudder and with all that inertia you have to be careful not to secondary stall it. Certainly as previously mentioned if you’re power on and pull through the pusher things could get exciting. But you know, you’re not supposed to do that. That’s kind of the point of training on stalls. Then again, if what I hear every year when I go through the schoolhouse is true, the standards out there in the pilot group aren’t exactly high. And that’s the people that actually go to sim training…

 

[killbilly]

It behaves exactly how you’d expect a 10000 lb airplane with 1200 horses on the nose to behave. You have to be on the rudder and with all that mass to accelerate you have to be careful not to secondary stall it. Certainly as previously mentioned if you’re power on and pull through the pusher things could get exciting. But you know, you’re not supposed to do that. That’s kind of the point of training on stalls. Then again, if what I hear every year when I go through the schoolhouse is true, the standards out there in the pilot group aren’t exactly high. And that’s the people that actually go to sim training…

Emphasis mine.

I was somewhat surprised to hear from @milleR once that the MU-2 enjoys a stellar safety record since incorporating rigorous training.

You've said specifically that you thought the PC-12 was a pretty pilot-proof airplane, so maybe we need to focus on making better pilots for the -12.

 

[Roger Roger]

You've said specifically that you thought the PC-12 was a pretty pilot-proof airplane, so maybe we need to focus on making better pilots for the -12.

Unless this accident turns out to
catastrophic mechanical failure, I think the accident record is providing us abundant evidence that that is the case. When I talk about what I hear at FSI every year, it goes something like this.

*I fly an perfectly ordinary checkride, with probably one or 2 things a really anal examiner could have busted me on (indeed, some of the examiners I had in training probably would have busted me on)*
Examiner: “wow! That’s one of the best rides I’ve had in a long time. And you should see some of the owner operators who come through who don’t have to take a checkride!”

I don’t know what the answer is, although the insurance companies are certainly going to put their $.02 in. Probably central to it is how to change the culture of training centers away from the customer service model.

Although, given how many of these things are running around and how much they fly, it’s probably still safer than a lot of other airplanes. Maybe most other airplanes.

 

[knot4u]

Hopefully this isn’t utterly tasteless, but my sense of humor is somewhat tickled at the idea of a last meal being McDonald’s.

Questionably, unless they had egg mcmuffins.

#Merica

Tasteless, utterly.

 

[zmiller4]

Hopefully this isn’t utterly tasteless, but my sense of humor is somewhat tickled at the idea of a last meal being McDonald’s.

Probably not “last meal”—they flew up on Saturday from Beaufort and there’s no McDonald’s anywhere near the hunting property.

There’s a McDonald’s right by the Beaufort airport though; I bet that photo was on the way up.

They’ve released all the names. Doesn’t seem like it was an owner-operator situation at all.

 

[milleR]

Emphasis mine.

I was somewhat surprised to hear from @milleR once that the MU-2 enjoys a stellar safety record since incorporating rigorous training.

You've said specifically that you thought the PC-12 was a pretty pilot-proof airplane, so maybe we need to focus on making better pilots for the -12.

I'm not sure I'd go quite to "stellar" per se, but it's gone from having the worst accident record in it's class by a wide margin to one of the best since the SFAR was put in place. Personally, I think every certified turbine airframe and cabin class piston twin should have a SFAR (now subpart N) type of required training program.

 

[pwttogfk]

I'm not sure I'd go quite to "stellar" per se, but it's gone from having the worst accident record in it's class by a wide margin to one of the best since the SFAR was put in place. Personally, I think every certified turbine airframe and cabin class piston twin should have a SFAR (now subpart N) type of required training program.

I used to fly into TUL a lot to pick up customers. They had a shop down there that did a lot of MU-2 work. I remember hearing one check in with departure declaring an emergency (wish I could remember why). The controller, without skipping a beat, came back with “again?” Never had a strong desire to fly one, surprisingly.

 

[milleR]

I used to fly into TUL a lot to pick up customers. They had a shop down there that did a lot of MU-2 work. I remember hearing one check in with departure declaring an emergency (wish I could remember why). The controller, without skipping a beat, came back with “again?” Never had a strong desire to fly one, surprisingly.

Knowing the plane and knowing that shop, my inclination is to say that comment was directed at the cockpit. It’s a great flying airplane, reliable as an Estwing hammer, and IJSC has a sterling reputation as a maintenance facility.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Hopefully this isn’t utterly tasteless, but my sense of humor is somewhat tickled at the idea of a last meal being McDonald’s.

Not funny.

Years ago, 2 young kids (boy, girl) unknowingly had their last meal at McDonald’s as they went up in a turbo/pressurized 210 from Orange County going to Vegas when they hit severe turbulence and the mother pilot lost control, all 3 died. Very sad accident. Human life is still human life, but I’m always more saddened about an accident when I know there were kids in there.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Doesn’t seem like it was an owner-operator situation at all.

As a middle-aged guy, it hurts that the age of the pilot could mean nothing or everything.

 

[MFT1Air]

I wouldn’t call any stall in the PC12 docile… Once it stalls it doesn’t want to fly again. Takes some finesse and like others have said, the torque from adding back that 1200 HP will put you right back into a stall. Been 5 years since I’ve flown it but I do remember stalling it would be quite undesirable.

@Roger Roger Sorry. I've been in the sim multiple times with a PC-12 in worse case "survivable" situations where if I didn't do right, I'd sim die. . .meaning if you followed procedures, you'd be fine. . .might be ugly, but you'd be fine.

I sim "died" a lot. Pilot error. . . period. Pilot error. The pilot was me. Nuff said.

On the video, nine minutes of disabled pusher stalls.

 

[MFT1Air]

Hopefully this isn’t utterly tasteless, but my sense of humor is somewhat tickled at the idea of a last meal being McDonald’s.

You're right. Wouldn't be funny perhaps if the child were yours I hope, so you wouldn't mind taking solace that, hypothetically speaking, if it were your child, there'd probably be one or two with the same utterly tasteless sense of humor had it been one of yours. They simply wouldn't have posted it as you did.

I personally would have, had "I" been ignorant enough to post such a comment . . .would have reflected on it and deleted it.

. . .but that's just me.

 

[Roger Roger]

@Roger Roger Sorry. I've been in the sim multiple times with a PC-12 in worse case "survivable" situations where if I didn't do right, I'd sim die. . .meaning if you followed procedures, you'd be fine. . .might be ugly, but you'd be fine.

I sim "died" a lot. Pilot error. . . period. Pilot error. The pilot was me. Nuff said.

On the video, nine minutes of disabled pusher stalls.

Not really sure what a video of pusher disabled stalls has to do with anything when I said multiple times that the stall is fine if you don’t pull past the pusher. Just a lot of inertia to respect as you’re trying to get climbing again and a lot of left turning tendency but the rudder is real effective too.

 

[pwttogfk]

@Roger Roger Sorry. I've been in the sim multiple times with a PC-12 in worse case "survivable" situations where if I didn't do right, I'd sim die. . .meaning if you followed procedures, you'd be fine. . .might be ugly, but you'd be fine.

I sim "died" a lot. Pilot error. . . period. Pilot error. The pilot was me. Nuff said.

On the video, nine minutes of disabled pusher stalls.

Radar pods…thoughts? I’ve done a fair number of full stalls in the PA46 and C208. Damn wicked break. The TTx would drop a wing on you if you weren’t coordinated but no matter how much I tried to channel my inner Sully I couldn’t get a plane with a radar pod to stall straight. An equally sized pod with TKS or luggage storage or something on the opposite wing seems like a smart idea to me. Full disclosure: resume consists of aerodynamics class 10+ years ago, craft IPA halfway through my bike ride, and Simpleplanes on Xbox.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Unless this accident turns out to
catastrophic mechanical failure, I think the accident record is providing us abundant evidence that that is the case. When I talk about what I hear at FSI every year, it goes something like this.

*I fly an perfectly ordinary checkride, with probably one or 2 things a really anal examiner could have busted me on (indeed, some of the examiners I had in training probably would have busted me on)*
Examiner: “wow! That’s one of the best rides I’ve had in a long time. And you should see some of the owner operators who come through who don’t have to take a checkride!”

I don’t know what the answer is, although the insurance companies are certainly going to put their $.02 in. Probably central to it is how to change the culture of training centers away from the customer service model.

Although, given how many of these things are running around and how much they fly, it’s probably still safer than a lot of other airplanes. Maybe most other airplanes.

I just flew with an FO who previously flew challengers. He was super sharp and I literally have no negative criticism of his work, but he straight up said that his previous job pitted the two larger corporate training centers against each other based on cost and effort to pass.

 

[///AMG]

Radar pods…thoughts? I’ve done a fair number of full stalls in the PA46 and C208. Damn wicked break. The TTx would drop a wing on you if you weren’t coordinated but no matter how much I tried to channel my inner Sully I couldn’t get a plane with a radar pod to stall straight. An equally sized pod with TKS or luggage storage or something on the opposite wing seems like a smart idea to me. Full disclosure: resume consists of aerodynamics class 10+ years ago, craft IPA halfway through my bike ride, and Simpleplanes on Xbox.

Completely different flight regime, but I remember doing a "mach run" in a Hornet up pretty high one afternoon, with the standard ATFLIR pod mounted on the left cheek station (under the left intake). No pylons on the wings or ordnance, hence why I decided to go for it. The moment it ticked over 1.6 mach, the thing yawed so rapidly to the left into the pod, it was super startling. I decided I'd leave the rest to the imagination and slowed the hell down. I have the same professional aerodynamics credentials as you and couldn't tell you why 1.6 was the number in that particular configuration, but it often isn't hard to observe and understand the gist of what is going on Have also flown a lot of times with weird asymmetric stores loading. That stuff will bite you fast if you are hamfisted or do something dumb. Similar idea to what you are saying, though much less drag based.

Also this accident is beyond tragic. I've got no words, can't imagine what those families are going through.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Hopefully this isn’t utterly tasteless, but my sense of humor is somewhat tickled at the idea of a last meal being McDonald’s.

No, tasteless would be wondering if the plane may have hit ducks in an epic act of revenge.

 

[NovemberEcho]

No, tasteless would be wondering if the plane may have hit ducks in an epic act of revenge.

damn, that’s qwhack

 

[MFT1Air]

Not really sure what a video of pusher disabled stalls has to do with anything when I said multiple times that the stall is fine if you don’t pull past the pusher. Just a lot of inertia to respect as you’re trying to get climbing again and a lot of left turning tendency but the rudder is real effective too.

The video supported the text. It illustrated possibility of what's been presented. . .pilot error. Sorry you missed the context of the words. . .the video actually reinforced MULTIPLES TIMES that the stall is fine if you don't pull past the pusher <oh, in the video, the pusher was disabled and the pilot did the right thing.> Hmmm.

 

[ppragman]

The video supported the text. It illustrated possibility of what's been presented. . .pilot error. Sorry you missed the context of the words. . .the video actually reinforced MULTIPLES TIMES that the stall is fine if you don't pull past the pusher <oh, in the video, the pusher was disabled and the pilot did the right thing.> Hmmm.

If you aren’t power on, the stall is reportedly very docile, but with the power on you run out of aileron to control torque right about the break.