tcco94
Future GTA VI Pilot
Correct
Once this hits full FDA approval in a few weeks I don't see them holding the same stance anyways.... But just my opinion.
But I mean holding your apps to avoid a carrier who makes you get the vaccine
.......
UAL to require all employees to get vaccinated
- Thread starter NovemberEcho
- Start date
Once this hits full FDA approval in a few weeks I don't see them holding the same stance anyways.... But just my opinion.
But I mean holding your apps to avoid a carrier who makes you get the vaccine
.......
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Correct. They always have the legal right to trespass me if that bothers them. It’s their property.
Right?!
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Correct. They always have the legal right to trespass me if that bothers them. It’s their property.
Right?!
One of the problems is people have a fundamental misunderstanding of infection and transmission. It’s not a yes or no proposition, but a game of odds. Those odds are directly affected by the inoculant (how much you get dosed with) and subsequent pathogen load.
Remember also that PCR tests can be very, very sensitive, and they detect only the presence of the specified genetic sequence, not the presence of the entire pathogen. Antigen tests work differently.
Let’s say a person has had COVID, and is fully vaccinated, so they have as much “immunity” as a normal person can have.
After six months or so, the antibodies have been waning since your body initially cleared the antigens/infection, because your body is not going to waste resources on stuff it no longer needs. But your exposure/vaccination left you with very good stock of memory “B” and “T” cells.
Recall also that under normal circumstances, your innate immune system kicks in almost immediately. Skin, hair, mucus is the first line, then you get complement, white blood cells, etc. If your exposure is low enough, it could very well be that the pathogen never gets a foothold, or keeps things in check until your acquired immune system kicks in. Part of your innate immune system’s job is to poke your acquired immune system to pay attention.
Under normal circumstances, your acquired immune system takes 7-10 days to spool up. Previous exposure/vaccination drops this time to 2-3 days in a healthy person.
Now you get “exposed”. Someone with a full blown COVID infection sneezes right in your face. Now it’s a game of odds. How much inoculant did you get? 1? 10? 100? 10xe10? That’s driven by a number of factors, but that individuals pathogen load is a primary driver.
Now the game of odds begins. How many particles did you get? Was it enough to overcome your innate barriers? Was it enough to evade your innate immune system and start replicating? In the case of viruses and intracelluar parasites, are enough infected cells evading destruction to generate a significant level of pathogen replication? Is it enough to actually cause symptomatic disease? Is it enough to actually generate pathogen shed that causes any reasonable risk to others?
In highly protected individuals, that load may never reach a level that causes disease. It might not reach any level at all because your innate system trapped it. It could be the amount never reaches any clinically significant amount that would cause a spread risk.
But you do “get it” and it will show up on a test if the load is high enough or the PCR test gets lucky. You may test positive even if there is no viable organism left. The PCR only looks for genetic material, and if it latches on to one, you get lucky.
Honestly, most people would be astounded that cellular biology works at all. Everything sits in a soup of goo with chemical pathways as the wiring. If things fit together, the chances of activity are higher than something that doesn’t.
WacoFan
Bigly
I think African-Americans, and Native Americans - due to the past transgressions in medical ethics that they've been victims of (that we KNOW of) and that haven't been concluded THAT far in the past have legitimately formed skepticism of modern medicine. For anyone else - basically anti-vaxxers at this point deserve no patience. The anti-vaxxers/anti-maskers are the same people that would cheat on rations in WW2. They simply will not make the smallest sacrifice for their country. They deserve nothing but scorn. The polio documentary I mentioned earlier, and @Derg confirmed was great was really fantastic.
1) The origin of the March of Dimes is beautiful - and lessons learned for modern philanthropy endure - I deal with it regularly.
2) The clinical trials for the polio vaccines were...interesting. They went to orphanages and simply inoculated those children. Also went to homes for the "feeble minded" and used them as test subjects. There was no informed consent going on.
3) When someone tells you they saw a profound FB post about how vaccines are dangerous and their individual action doesn't impact the community...while taking a dump, ask them if they've ever seen someone in person that is in an iron lung. Then ask why nobody has to take the small pox vaccine or children being crippled by "Delta-polio". Record their answers and please post.
1) The origin of the March of Dimes is beautiful - and lessons learned for modern philanthropy endure - I deal with it regularly.
2) The clinical trials for the polio vaccines were...interesting. They went to orphanages and simply inoculated those children. Also went to homes for the "feeble minded" and used them as test subjects. There was no informed consent going on.
3) When someone tells you they saw a profound FB post about how vaccines are dangerous and their individual action doesn't impact the community...while taking a dump, ask them if they've ever seen someone in person that is in an iron lung. Then ask why nobody has to take the small pox vaccine or children being crippled by "Delta-polio". Record their answers and please post.
Three Down and Locked
Well-Known Member
Why mandate a vaccine for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate?
4.3 million dead, maybe?
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
At Eskimo I only fly domestic. Other than tourist traps south of the border that don’t seem to care to much about vaccination status. And I’m too junior for those trips unless it’s Xmas or T day.
I’m basically stuck flying between SEA and Kucklehead, AK or Kucklehead, USA…
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Bob Ridpath
Pit Bull love
I can’t count the number of vaccines I’ve received over the decades. It certainly started with polio and continued from there (even included fluoride rinses in grade school, a REAL hot button in those days). I enjoyed the measles, mumps and chicken pox first hand, tho’ there may (?) have been boosters later. The USAF made sure I had my share of protection against diseases I’d never see just in case they needed to send me to a place where I might.
Most people these days only know polio from the leg braces in “Forrest Gump,” but the Iron Lung was real and a particular hell on earth within my early lifetime.
Through my graying years I’ve received the Flu shot on an annual basis, got the pneumonia one last year, and two rounds of Moderna this past Spring (not a single side affect, by the way). I’ll take a booster for Covid if/as recommended and, as for the last forty+ years, a Flu shot in the fall, just as I would a Tetanus booster if I stepped on a rusty nail.
Although both my (grown) children are solidly anti-vaxxears, they got all their vaccines and boosters as needed during their 18 years at home - all without complications, I might add.
All this seems damned foolish to me personally, but I’m well past the point in life where I try to convince people to do “what’s right.” Get the shot, or don’t. Get sick and get better, or don’t. Bring it home to your kids, or don’t. I choose for myself as well; it’s just different sometimes from the choices others make - and I’m unable, generally, to change their minds about such things with so much “truth” available on YouTube (and other places) made available by “basement experts.”
My only two cents to the whole discussion. Live long prosper, or don’t … May the odds be ever in your favor.
Most people these days only know polio from the leg braces in “Forrest Gump,” but the Iron Lung was real and a particular hell on earth within my early lifetime.
Through my graying years I’ve received the Flu shot on an annual basis, got the pneumonia one last year, and two rounds of Moderna this past Spring (not a single side affect, by the way). I’ll take a booster for Covid if/as recommended and, as for the last forty+ years, a Flu shot in the fall, just as I would a Tetanus booster if I stepped on a rusty nail.
Although both my (grown) children are solidly anti-vaxxears, they got all their vaccines and boosters as needed during their 18 years at home - all without complications, I might add.
All this seems damned foolish to me personally, but I’m well past the point in life where I try to convince people to do “what’s right.” Get the shot, or don’t. Get sick and get better, or don’t. Bring it home to your kids, or don’t. I choose for myself as well; it’s just different sometimes from the choices others make - and I’m unable, generally, to change their minds about such things with so much “truth” available on YouTube (and other places) made available by “basement experts.”
My only two cents to the whole discussion. Live long prosper, or don’t … May the odds be ever in your favor.
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Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
The anti-vax rallying point is also going to be the (truthful) downfall: Covid is here to stay.
Yup. It is.
But as we know, the virus will mutate over time and create different variants (Delta and Delta One, oops, I mean Delta Plus).
Guess what?
Even with 99.7% survival, hospitals are STUFFED with people who will eventually survive with proper care. But in the mean time, the rest of civilized society who took the vaccines don't have a bed in case we need critical care for anything.
Just watch. The govt cannot mandate vaccines, but I bet you that private employers WILL do it!
Southwest and Frontier have already announced softening forward looking bookings and future cancellations received now. People are being affected by this Delta variant.
You fly for an airline wardog? If so, get ready for an employer mandated jab. And given that Covid is here to stay forever, I can see annual jab requirements too for the boosters. Society will have to adapt to living with Covid, and it’s the only way. We CANNOT constantly have hospital beds full of anti-vax idiots.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
We don’t know. There is a balancing act with any pathogen between transmissibility and virulence. The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long…that kind of stuff. There may be some trade off in the organism that makes it more transmissible but at a “cost” of reducing bad effects. And it doesn’t take much to completely inactivate a bug. A couple of base pairs will do it. The next variant may be way more transmissible but doesn’t even cause a sniffle to anyone.
It really all comes down to a few basic physical properties that operate in balance. Only in extremely rare cases does something hit all the gates in just the right way, such as the Spanish Flu.
Thermodynamics isn’t just something that torments sophomore engineers. It is part and parcel of the entire physical world, most especially biology. Organisms are always looking to shed stuff they don’t need, such as resistant malaria. Once the selection pressure is removed, they’ll eventually lose the resistance because there is a thermodynamic penalty for all organisms carrying around what they don’t need.
Small Pox, Polio, Rabies, Scarlet Fever, Measles, Mumps, Whooping Cough… the list goes on and on of things we have conquered and put back in the box. We’ll stop this one too because it will either burn itself out, lose its vector or mutate into something harmless.
Fear is the mind killer. Saying stuff like “it will always be here” is not only spreading fear, but historically inaccurate.
Did you (general 'you', not specific 'you') know that our government puts artificial levels of fluoride in our drinking water? Not all cities, but about 70% of public drinking water supplies in the U.S. do. Without your consent, to boot.
(Historic note: Grand Rapids was the first city to do so.)
Oh, the outrage!
"A flurry of cases were heard in numerous state courts across the U.S. ...during the early years of water fluoridation. State courts consistently held in favor of allowing fluoridation to continue, analogizing fluoridation to mandatory vaccination and the use of other chemicals to clean the public water supply, both of which had a long-standing history of acceptance by courts."
edit to add:
"The Supreme Court of Oklahoma analogized water fluoridation to mandatory vaccination in a 1954 case.[50] The court noted, "we think the weight of well-reasoned modern precedent sustains the right of municipalities to adopt such reasonable and undiscriminating measures to improve their water supplies as are necessary to protect and improve the public health, even though no epidemic is imminent and no contagious disease or virus is directly involved .... To us it seems ridiculous and of no consequence in considering the public health phase of the case that the substance to be added to the water may be classed as a mineral rather than a drug, antiseptic or germ killer; just as it is of little, if any, consequence whether fluoridation accomplishes its beneficial result to the public health by killing germs in the water, or by hardening the teeth or building up immunity in them to the bacteria that causes caries or tooth decay. If the latter, there can be no distinction on principle between it and compulsory vaccination or inoculation, which, for many years, has been well-established as a valid exercise of police power."
(Historic note: Grand Rapids was the first city to do so.)
Oh, the outrage!
"A flurry of cases were heard in numerous state courts across the U.S. ...during the early years of water fluoridation. State courts consistently held in favor of allowing fluoridation to continue, analogizing fluoridation to mandatory vaccination and the use of other chemicals to clean the public water supply, both of which had a long-standing history of acceptance by courts."
edit to add:
"The Supreme Court of Oklahoma analogized water fluoridation to mandatory vaccination in a 1954 case.[50] The court noted, "we think the weight of well-reasoned modern precedent sustains the right of municipalities to adopt such reasonable and undiscriminating measures to improve their water supplies as are necessary to protect and improve the public health, even though no epidemic is imminent and no contagious disease or virus is directly involved .... To us it seems ridiculous and of no consequence in considering the public health phase of the case that the substance to be added to the water may be classed as a mineral rather than a drug, antiseptic or germ killer; just as it is of little, if any, consequence whether fluoridation accomplishes its beneficial result to the public health by killing germs in the water, or by hardening the teeth or building up immunity in them to the bacteria that causes caries or tooth decay. If the latter, there can be no distinction on principle between it and compulsory vaccination or inoculation, which, for many years, has been well-established as a valid exercise of police power."
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
Yes, but your airline operates to Mexico and Canada right? Are they just going to exempt all those they won’t get vaccinated from flying to Canada? What if someone is on reserve?
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Just Mexico. Horizon does all of our Canada flying.
They didn’t help us with leave or pay or anything with getting vaccinated. I don’t feel bad that they created a mess by not supporting the pilot group.
To me it seems like paying a nominal amount and allowing an absence so people notify the company voluntarily that they were vaccinated seem like a much cheaper and simple way to sort this out.
But stepping over dollars to pick up pennies seems like the MO around here so…
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GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
Wow, I had no idea Horizon does all of your Canada flying! Yikes.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Three Down and Locked
Well-Known Member
Cos the government would Never lie to us about facts and figures would they? They have never lied to us before so why would they lie now.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
The government (all... not just the US) have a history of lying and saying it's not as bad as it actually is.
So yes, you a correct, but it's not helping your argument.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Obviously. Just as coronaviruses have been around for ages, just that this one was a novel coronavirus.
KLB
Well-Known Member
I demand to have organic naturally sourced non GMO water. I hear the Government puts mind control chemicals in the water that turns you liberal. They do it in large cities in particular to control the economy. That's why big cities are liberal. I also hear they put tiny microbes in the water that bond together in your body to form these tiny trackers. Nancy Pelosi has been secretly siphoning money that is supposed to be used in the new infrastructure bill into this project. Hillary Clinton was going to fast track this project, but Trump caught wind of it and blocked it when he became President. It's all in this blog that I follow. The blog is called The Secret Society of Patriotic Patriotism of Patriots for America with 2nd Amendment Rights and Don't Tread on Me.
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