A bad/poor pilot

[Space Monkey]

Yeh. The video of the crash looked pretty much like his approaches in a 207.

I take it his 207 approaches were also horrible, if not lethal. ??

If you know what you're doing, you can approach in any certified airplane like you can in a 207. The real key is first to know how to properly execute an approach in a 207.

 

[dustoff17]

Done, We flew off the SOE time yesterday. Whew!

The entire flight, he was so far behind the plane! Can’t hand fly to save a life; he was 800’ from assigned altitude at 3,800fpm rate of climb! He did this same style of climb and late response to level-off for ALL five altitude assignments…..he WON’T listen! On one climb out, he stopped climbing around 8,110’ (aiming for 8), and then rapidly descended to 7,940’. Then he just continued to fly at 7,940’…really?

I said, ”You should get back to 8,000’“ He replied, “It’s within the tolerance!”
”Yeah, but if you can hold 7,940, why not just hold 8,000? “‘Cause I don’t have to.”
Ugh………

I‘m guessing I said “altitude“ as a warning maybe 7 or 8 times throughout the day. He was also confused about how to set up an approach. He stumbled with loading and arming the RNAV approach and never figured it out! If we weren’t visual, I would have had to jump in. And this is guy is a CFII….!!!! Then, last landing in the plane, he Pogo-sticked the plane down the runway; it wasn’t the ugliest three landings I’ve seen (or done) but it’s on the list!!

I feel a huge relief that I’m done with this and even more relieved that I have ZERO professional or personal responsibility beyond the sign-off!!!

 

[T/O w/FSII]

Done, We flew off the SOE time yesterday. Whew!

The entire flight, he was so far behind the plane! Can’t hand fly to save a life; he was 800’ from assigned altitude at 3,800fpm rate of climb! He did this same style of climb and late response to level-off for ALL five altitude assignments…..he WON’T listen! On one climb out, he stopped climbing around 8,110’ (aiming for 8), and then rapidly descended to 7,940’. Then he just continued to fly at 7,940’…really?

I said, ”You should get back to 8,000’“ He replied, “It’s within the tolerance!”
”Yeah, but if you can hold 7,940, why not just hold 8,000? “‘Cause I don’t have to.”
Ugh………

I‘m guessing I said “altitude“ as a warning maybe 7 or 8 times throughout the day. He was also confused about how to set up an approach. He stumbled with loading and arming the RNAV approach and never figured it out! If we weren’t visual, I would have had to jump in. And this is guy is a CFII….!!!! Then, last landing in the plane, he Pogo-sticked the plane down the runway; it wasn’t the ugliest three landings I’ve seen (or done) but it’s on the list!!

I feel a huge relief that I’m done with this and even more relieved that I have ZERO professional or personal responsibility beyond the sign-off!!!

So why are you signing the SOE off? The FSDO is going to want your signature on his logbook. Might want to think twice about it.

 

[Space Monkey]

Done, We flew off the SOE time yesterday. Whew!

The entire flight, he was so far behind the plane! Can’t hand fly to save a life; he was 800’ from assigned altitude at 3,800fpm rate of climb! He did this same style of climb and late response to level-off for ALL five altitude assignments…..he WON’T listen! On one climb out, he stopped climbing around 8,110’ (aiming for 8), and then rapidly descended to 7,940’. Then he just continued to fly at 7,940’…really?

I said, ”You should get back to 8,000’“ He replied, “It’s within the tolerance!”
”Yeah, but if you can hold 7,940, why not just hold 8,000? “‘Cause I don’t have to.”
Ugh………

I‘m guessing I said “altitude“ as a warning maybe 7 or 8 times throughout the day. He was also confused about how to set up an approach. He stumbled with loading and arming the RNAV approach and never figured it out! If we weren’t visual, I would have had to jump in. And this is guy is a CFII….!!!! Then, last landing in the plane, he Pogo-sticked the plane down the runway; it wasn’t the ugliest three landings I’ve seen (or done) but it’s on the list!!

I feel a huge relief that I’m done with this and even more relieved that I have ZERO professional or personal responsibility beyond the sign-off!!!

Sounds like some autopilots I've been asked to use.

But in the words of @T/O w/FSII, why ARE you signing that off??

Best case sounds to me like your boy confused "altitude" with "attitude" and then figured you were asking him to maintain the psychological one rather than the positional.

 

[Max Power]

Yeh. The video of the crash looked pretty much like his approaches in a 207.

My regional was in and out of CRW a lot at this time, but I never followed up on it. That video is F’N horrific and the story is worse. Cheezus…..

I remember flying with a CA who was so worried about getting in trouble (feds, company, whatever.) that he micromanaged the crap out of everything. Micromanaging, not being smooth with the plane and being a phallus to everyone outside the cockpit are hallmarks of “bad” pilots. And many cannot see the forest for the trees as others have mentioned. We had one guy that largely caused our shop to create a “captains etiquette” class he was so insufferable.

And in general, if you can’t treat the FA(s) (if equipped)with respect, you suck.

 

[NovemberEcho]

I feel a huge relief that I’m done with this and even more relieved that I have ZERO professional or personal responsibility beyond the sign-off!!!

I gotta ask, if you’re that questionable about his abilities why are you signing him off?

 

[T/O w/FSII]

I gotta ask, if you’re that questionable about his abilities why are you signing him off?

Yea, this.

Although the way the FAR is written, the PIC doesn’t really have to “attest” to anything except that the flights actually happened. However…

The FARs do require the applicant to obtain the flight time while performing the duties of PIC.

It sounds like the kid couldn’t PIC his way out of a paper bag so…not really sure why the OP is thinking he is free of responsibility.

5-327 REMOVAL OF THE SUPERVISED OPERATING EXPERIENCE (SOE) LIMITATION, “THE ‘NAME OF TYPE RATING’ IS SUBJECT TO PIC LIMITATIONS” FROM A PILOT TYPE RATING ON A PILOT CERTIFICATE.

A. Actions Required. To remove the SOE limitation, the applicant must:

1) Perform 25 hours of flight time in an aircraft of the category, class, and type for which the limitation applies under the direct observation of the PIC who holds a category, class, and type rating, without limitations, for the aircraft;

2) Log each flight and the PIC who observed the flight attests in writing to each flight;

3) Obtain the flight time while performing the duties of PIC; and

4) Present evidence of the SOE to any examiner or FAA FSDO to have the limitation removed. This would require the applicant to complete a FAA Form 8710-1 application form. This application process is purely an administrative action only.

B. Complete the Application. The application must identify the 25 hours that were performed to remove the limitation. These hours can be shown in either Section IIA or Section III. The Other box should be completed to show: Removal of SOE. The inspector or examiner’s report will also show “Removal of SOE limitation from [insert name of type rating] with 25 hours,” mark “Approved” or “Disapproved,” along with their signature and approval date. The date of the Temporary Airman Certificate will be the same date the inspector or examiner signed their report.

 

[Space Monkey]

My regional was in and out of CRW a lot at this time, but I never followed up on it. That video is F’N horrific and the story is worse. Cheezus…..

I remember flying with a CA who was so worried about getting in trouble (feds, company, whatever.) that he micromanaged the crap out of everything. Micromanaging, not being smooth with the plane and being a phallus to everyone outside the cockpit are hallmarks of “bad” pilots. And many cannot see the forest for the trees as others have mentioned. We had one guy that largely caused our shop to create a “captains etiquette” class he was so insufferable.

And in general, if you can’t treat the FA(s) (if equipped)with respect, you suck.

I despise a lousy aviator as much as more than the next guy. And, sure, big picture is important. That said, in today's world, it's always extremely important to maintain the awareness that forests are comprised of trees, and management and FAA are holding sharp, smoking chainsaws.

 

[MikeD]

I gotta ask, if you’re that questionable about his abilities why are you signing him off?

the FAA is asking here, for the record.

 

[Max Power]

I despise a lousy aviator as much as more than the next guy. And, sure, big picture is important. That said, in today's world, it's always extremely important to maintain the awareness that forests are comprised of trees, and management and FAA are holding sharp, smoking chainsaws.

No doubt, but holding what might be an irrational fear of those forces is almost as bad as blatant disregard in terms of professionalism, imho.

 

[Space Monkey]

No doubt, but holding what might be an irrational fear of those forces is almost as bad as blatant disregard in terms of professionalism, imho.

In MY humble opinion, ANYTHING irrational is, by definition, unprofessional. But who's counting these days, eh? (I mean that question dispositively, yeah?)

 

[dustoff17]

So why are you signing the SOE off? The FSDO is going to want your signature on his logbook. Might want to think twice about it.

I gotta ask, if you’re that questionable about his abilities why are you signing him off?

Yea, this.

Although the way the FAR is written, the PIC doesn’t really have to “attest” to anything except that the flights actually happened. However…

The FARs do require the applicant to obtain the flight time while performing the duties of PIC.

It sounds like the kid couldn’t PIC his way out of a paper bag so…not really sure why the OP is thinking he is free of responsibility.

I talked to an FFA (yeah, I know) examiner from a FSDO about this. I told him what I’ve been seeing, my opinion of his capabilities, and my concerns for his future operation in a turbojet. Also told him what the Director of Training told me about this guy’s bare-minimum performance during initial.

According to him, my “responsibility“ in an SOE situation is to “SUPERVISE”. Also, he said, “In MOST cases, while these flights include tips, techniques, and instruction, it is NOT a regulatory requirement.”
”That seems a bit weird to me.”
”Are you an instructor and did you issue the Type Rating?”
”No Sir to both.”
“Was he in the left seat functioning as the PIC for a minimum of 25 hours?”
”Yes, Sir.”
“Then YOUR responsibility for the SOE and the sign-off has been met.”
”And when he has an accident?” [NOTE: when, not if]
“I’m sure you’ll be questioned but the burden for his performance falls on FlightSafety here.”
“OK, thank you for your time….”

As I posted earlier…..Whew!

 

[T/O w/FSII]

I talked to an FFA (yeah, I know) examiner from a FSDO about this. I told him what I’ve been seeing, my opinion of his capabilities, and my concerns for his future operation in a turbojet. Also told him what the Director of Training told me about this guy’s bare-minimum performance during initial.

According to him, my “responsibility“ in an SOE situation is to “SUPERVISE”. Also, he said, “In MOST cases, while these flights include tips, techniques, and instruction, it is NOT a regulatory requirement.”
”That seems a bit weird to me.”
”Are you an instructor and did you issue the Type Rating?”
”No Sir to both.”
“Was he in the left seat functioning as the PIC for a minimum of 25 hours?”
”Yes, Sir.”
“Then YOUR responsibility for the SOE and the sign-off has been met.”
”And when he has an accident?” [NOTE: when, not if]
“I’m sure you’ll be questioned but the burden for his performance falls on FlightSafety here.”
“OK, thank you for your time….”

As I posted earlier…..Whew!

While I agree, the kid wasn’t functioning as a PIC by any stretch of the imagination it seems like.

 

[dustoff17]

While I agree, the kid wasn’t functioning as a PIC by any stretch of the imagination it seems like.

I agree with you in principle and as a professional.

However, the “kid” is 38, 1,000 TT, including now 75.2 multi, CFI, and CFII! And he was, in fact, “functioning” as PIC. He IS type rated, was sitting in the left seat, and he was the sole-manipulator.

The fact that he’s a soup sandwich, is overwhelmed at the helm, doesn’t keep up with the plane, has, at this point, either failed or refused to complete RVSM training, doesn’t seem to be able to load an approach properly, can’t maintain centerline during a hand flown visual, and pogo stick bounces every landing doesn’t mean he isn’t “functioning as PIC”.

As you read through the NTSB accident reports, the person functioning as PIC is on the books regardless of who was physically flying or why the plane crashed.

 

[T/O w/FSII]

I agree with you in principle and as a professional.

However, the “kid” is 38, 1,000 TT, including now 75.2 multi, CFI, and CFII! And he was, in fact, “functioning” as PIC. He IS type rated, was sitting in the left seat, and he was the sole-manipulator.

The fact that he’s a soup sandwich, is overwhelmed at the helm, doesn’t keep up with the plane, has, at this point, either failed or refused to complete RVSM training, doesn’t seem to be able to load an approach properly, can’t maintain centerline during a hand flown visual, and pogo stick bounces every landing doesn’t mean he isn’t “functioning as PIC”.

As you read through the NTSB accident reports, the person functioning as PIC is on the books regardless of who was physically flying or why the plane crashed.

I mean, you’re not wrong!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dustoff17]

I mean, you’re not wrong!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, but I am terrified this will come up again!

 

[SteveC]

No, but I am terrified this will come up again!

Document, and get it on record with the company.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

always bad mouthed other CFI's, the owner and the chief pilot as bad pilots during our flights. Saying that he was smarter and a better pilot than all of them.

There is your answer - if there isn't a textbook definition, that's fairly close. Talking about other what other people do/how they fly/general gossip is doing zero for you as a student. So, learn to ignore it and don't post on the interwebs about it. And don't be that person later.

I'm (hopefully temporarily?) back in the dual given business for a bit. It is a humbling experience. While obviously you should know a bit more than your students - that isn't the job. The job is to teach and then critique what they are doing, and have them critique what you are doing, and ultimately, have them be able to critique what they are doing themselves. You are teaching the culture as much as how to operate an airplane at the end of the day.

Talking about anyone else isn't making you a better pilot. And it isn't making them a better instructor.

I don't think I'm the best teacher. I bounce questions off people that know more than me -- sometimes the answer is I'm wrong and I'm full of it -- sometimes it's that I'm doing the right thing -- or someplace in between. But that is better done in private, it is easier to get honest feedback that way.

In 20+ years of flying, I've known more than a few of what I thought were great pilots who died by doing stupid things. I'm still great friends with many fairly "average" pilots. The "God's gift to aviation" crowd don't tend to make a lot of friends -- so I've lost touch with most I've known.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

There is your answer - if there isn't a textbook definition, that's fairly close. Talking about other what other people do/how they fly/general gossip is doing zero for you as a student. So, learn to ignore it and don't post on the interwebs about it. And don't be that person later.

I'm (hopefully temporarily?) back in the dual given business for a bit. It is a humbling experience. While obviously you should know a bit more than your students - that isn't the job. The job is to teach and then critique what they are doing, and have them critique what you are doing, and ultimately, have them be able to critique what they are doing themselves. You are teaching the culture as much as how to operate an airplane at the end of the day.

Talking about anyone else isn't making you a better pilot. And it isn't making them a better instructor.

I don't think I'm the best teacher. I bounce questions off people that know more than me -- sometimes the answer is I'm wrong and I'm full of it -- sometimes it's that I'm doing the right thing -- or someplace in between. But that is better done in private, it is easier to get honest feedback that way.

In 20+ years of flying, I've known more than a few of what I thought were great pilots who died by doing stupid things. I'm still great friends with many fairly "average" pilots. The "God's gift to aviation" crowd don't tend to make a lot of friends -- so I've lost touch with most I've known.

Yeah, all that he wanted to do was air his grievances when we'd go up flying and make sounds of disapproval when I did something wrong and take the controls. And yell at me. I fired him as my CFI. He must have had similar attitudes with other students, because he eventually got fired from the flight school.

 

[T/O w/FSII]

Another way you can tell a bad/poor pilot is when you ask them what they can legally fly and they don’t have a clue.