A bad/poor pilot

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I learned to fly while in high school at Brown Field near San Diego. The flight instructors were a bunch of crusty retired Navy guys, that was the norm. You missed getting slapped in the back of the head.

I had about 11 hours one lesson, after the third landing he said let me out of here before you kill me. He climbed out of the airplane between the runways (paved) then turned and said, do three landings, the 3rd one to a full stop. I had no idea I was close to solo. Despite all the abuse I guess I was doing okay.

My very first instructor during my PPL training was retired Air Force. He flew Phantoms in Nam, was a training pilot and retired on the F-15C. He would literally cuss you out in the plane and call you all manner of names like a "f-kin' p**sy", or a f**got, when you did stuff wrong and immediately take the controls. Like one time he was like. "Are you f-kin' stupid, or are you just f-kin'? I was just a lil' punk 23 yr. old I wasn't prepared for that. I was very intimidated by him and questioned myself numerous times before I did something in the plane, so as not to draw his ire. I wasn't learning under his tutelage as a result. I asked for a new instructor. My next instructor I had for only a few months, then he escaped to the airlines, back when regionals were hiring at 250 tt.

 

[Springer]

Here is your atypical younger, cocky, low time pilot. Buys an RV-4 and cockiness jumps by a factor of 4. Tried to humble him by teaching formation flying. It worked at first but two weeks after this photo he and a friend attempted an aileron roll with full fuel immediately after take off at La Cholla Airpark, AZ. Both died instantly.

 

[Springer]

My very first instructor during my PPL training was retired Air Force. He flew Phantoms in Nam, was a training pilot and retired on the F-15C. He would literally cuss you out in the plane and call you all manner of names like a "f-kin' p**sy", or a f**got, when you did stuff wrong and immediately take the controls. Like one time he was like. "Are you f-kin' stupid, or are you just f-kin'? I was just a lil' punk 23 yr. old I wasn't prepared for that. I was very intimidated by him and questioned myself numerous times before I did something in the plane, so as not to draw his ire. I wasn't learning under his tutelage as a result. I asked for a new instructor. My next instructor I had for only a few months, then he escaped to the airlines, back when regionals were hiring at 250 tt.

We hear stories like yours from time to time but fortunately examples of that are far and few between. It has no place in aviation. I never saw nor know of anyone that was exposed to it during my PPL, military, commuter, major airline training.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Kind of on this subject, I recall being a gate agent working a CRJ going to SNA and there was an issue with the autopilot. Autothrottles worked, but the plane would otherwise need to be handflown. The Captain refused the 1 hour leg and I asked (in a student pilot way, not a gate agent way) if the CRJ can not be hand flown. She said, "It is WAY too sensitive to be flown at cruise by hand, modern airliners need autopilot up there, we can only handfly the departures and arrivals". I was 18 and just went "Oh, OK". Well, rather than ground the plane, dispatch decides to try their luck and use the aircraft for a longer flight to PHX. The next crew takes the plane, just making a comment like "Damn it, I guess we'll just get a block altitude, it's only a 90 minute flight" when mx told them about the issue in the bridge. As soon as the new CA said that, I told him what the previous CA had said (who had a mid 1980s DOH by the way), and, well, he said something super sexist and it wasn't really productive lol.

Of course, now I know you can totally fly an hour leg in a CRJ without the autopilot and just get a block altitude to help out. My question is, bad/crappy pilot, or assuming she was an autopilot from rotation to flare kind of person, was it really just not good idea to put the pax through an hour of her handflying for more than 5 minutes for the first time in years and it was a "safe" decision (as in good enough reason to cancel a flight)? Even though, you know, it's a pilots job to fly the aircraft...and there is another pilot in the right seat who could probably do it lol.

Years later @JustinS took me on a CRJ ride SFO-SBP-LAX with no AP and handflew it so smooth you'd never know. But another time @JordanD and I were in a Mesa CRJ-900 obviously being handflown that was flying so crappy we were actually laughing, it was like a theme park ride. So I gather handflying skills vary greatly from CRJ driver to CRJ driver.

My very first instructor during my PPL training was retired Air Force. He flew Phantoms in Nam, was a training pilot and retired on the F-15C. He would literally cuss you out in the plane and call you all manner of names like a "f-kin' p**sy", or a f**got, when you did stuff wrong and immediately take the controls. Like one time he was like. "Are you f-kin' stupid, or are you just f-kin'? I was just a lil' punk 23 yr. old I wasn't prepared for that. I was very intimidated by him and questioned myself numerous times before I did something in the plane, so as not to draw his ire. I wasn't learning under his tutelage as a result. I asked for a new instructor. My next instructor I had for only a few months, then he escaped to the airlines, back when regionals were hiring at 250 tt.

Sounds like my first several months in the bigger ramp tower being trained by an old ex Airforce and FAA badass. He'd be over there playing solitaire on the computer, and I'd do something not even bad but just inefficient out of inexperience, and next thing I know he's slap the table so hard my ears would ring and he'd be cussing me out so loud I'd have to wait for him to stop to click the mic. I feel like it was the best possible training I'd ever gotten and I was more comfortable with doing weird stuff when needed than anyone there (but him) by the time he was done with me. I get how it's not for everyone, but I learned that while it shakes the crap out of me, being trained like that meant I was never nervous when no one was about to go ballistic in my face anymore, having survived that. Lol. He told me that's how he was trained, too, but apparently everyone else refused to be trained by him but me and 1 other guy despite him being the best. Go figure.

My primary CFI was similar, but not vulgar and as abrasive. Also an old school old white guy with the toughest love, and I think that really helped me too, because his whole thing was "You want to be a professional pilot right? Well then you need to fly BETTER than all these other A-holes who are just doing it for fun, and I'm not holding you to their (kitty kat) standards". Stalls made me airsick my first maybe 10-15 hours, so one day he was like "We're getting you over this crap" and we did stall after stall for over an hour, with steep turns thrown in to get us turned around as needed. I didn't eat for 3 days, but ever since even roller coasters no longer bother me. I guess it all worked...

Both these guys were suddenly sweet hearts when I was certified, btw.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Kind of on this subject, I recall being a gate agent working a CRJ going to SNA and there was an issue with the autopilot. Autothrottles worked, but the plane would otherwise need to be handflown. The Captain refused the 1 hour leg and I asked (in a student pilot way, not a gate agent way) if the CRJ can not be hand flown. She said, "It is WAY too sensitive to be flown at cruise by hand, modern airliners need autopilot up there, we can only handfly the departures and arrivals". I was 18 and just went "Oh, OK". Well, rather than ground the plane, dispatch decides to try their luck and use the aircraft for a longer flight to PHX. The next crew takes the plane, just making a comment like "Damn it, I guess we'll just get a block altitude, it's only a 90 minute flight" when mx told them about the issue in the bridge. As soon as the new CA said that, I told him what the previous CA had said (who had a mid 1980s DOH by the way), and, well, he said something super sexist and it wasn't really productive lol.

Of course, now I know you can totally fly an hour leg in a CRJ without the autopilot and just get a block altitude to help out. My question is, bad/crappy pilot, or assuming she was an autopilot from rotation to flare kind of person, was it really just not good idea to put the pax through an hour of her handflying for more than 5 minutes for the first time in years and it was a "safe" decision (as in good enough reason to cancel a flight)? Even though, you know, it's a pilots job to fly the aircraft...and there is another pilot in the right seat who could probably do it lol.

Years later @JustinS took me on a CRJ ride SFO-SBP-LAX with no AP and handflew it so smooth you'd never know. But another time @JordanD and I were in a Mesa CRJ-900 obviously being handflown that was flying so crappy we were actually laughing, it was like a theme park ride. So I gather handflying skills vary greatly from CRJ driver to CRJ driver.

Point one: The CRJ doesn’t have any autothrottles.

Point two: The CRJ absolutely can be hand flown in cruise quite easily, if you need a block of altitude for cruise you’re a pretty awful pilot. Operating in RVSM you don’t get a lot of practice hand flying in cruise, so it might lack some smoothness if a pilot doesn’t go out of their way to hand fly often.

But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t situations where taking an airplane without an autopilot might not be the safest idea. Had a long day? Other pilot isn’t the best pilot monitoring? Complicated SID/STAR (check out some of the arrivals into DCA/IAD)? Lots of weather enroute? You need to look at the big picture in terms of TEM.

Two related situations from my CRJ days that come to mind.

The first was ORD-SAV with the autopilot deferred. Storms enroute as well as some icing along the way. Competent crew on a relatively easy day, so we took the airplane. About half way we noticed that the engine oil pressure was fluctuating quite a bit. We ran the checklist, which involved a couple step down descents so we could bring the power to idle on the offending engine and then back up again. Dealing with storms, icing, QRH, phone patch with maintenance, AND no autopilot got pretty busy. We didn’t know we would be facing the oil pressure issue, but I don’t think it would be a terrible decision to say “the weather isn’t great, its a long flight, if any other situation pops up we might push ourselves into a situation where we might end up error prone.

Second story was the first leg of my last trip at Surejet. DTW-MEM and through about 13,000 feet I feel the pressure changing in my ears and we get a master warning for a bleed air leak. Despite being smart enough to identify which side is leaking AND having automated bleed air control, the airplane is designed to close all bleed air sources so the airplane began to depressurize. We run the appropriate checklist, declare an emergency because the temperature was getting quite warm on board, and return to DTW. In a rare stroke of competence, they assign us a gate right next to the spare airplane. We park, walk over, see the autopilot is deferred, and decide we want no part of it. We told them we’d take that airplane somewhere closer, or a different airplane to MEM, but after our first leg we decided we weren’t the crew for that particular flight and they stuck a reserve crew on the MEM turn. We sat around the airport drinking too much coffee before we took the no autopilot plane to CLE, a crazy short flight.

 

[Richman]

My very first instructor during my PPL training was retired Air Force. He flew Phantoms in Nam, was a training pilot and retired on the F-15C. He would literally cuss you out in the plane and call you all manner of names like a "f-kin' p**sy", or a f**got, when you did stuff wrong and immediately take the controls. Like one time he was like. "Are you f-kin' stupid, or are you just f-kin'? I was just a lil' punk 23 yr. old I wasn't prepared for that. I was very intimidated by him and questioned myself numerous times before I did something in the plane, so as not to draw his ire. I wasn't learning under his tutelage as a result. I asked for a new instructor. My next instructor I had for only a few months, then he escaped to the airlines, back when regionals were hiring at 250 tt.

There are multiple versions of this kind of cat.

There is the non-self aware version. They’re easy to spot and deal with, and generally they act all surprised when they get called out and/or culled. They usually stomp off all pissed, complaining about the state of things because no one recognizes their skill/genius.

The way, WAY more difficult version of this person is the one who IS self-aware, and they actively modify their behavior anytime there is someone of authority around. They truly can be a giant PITA to deal with, and can wreak serious havoc before they finally get ferreted out.

Both versions can have FIM (friends in management), which can significantly increase the PITA factor.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

They way, WAY more difficult version of this person is the one who IS self-aware, and they actively modify their behavior anytime there is someone of authority around. They truly can be a giant PITA to deal with, and can wreak serious havoc before they finally get ferreted out.

We have quite a few of those. Name always comes up when talking about crazy stuff we’ve seen on the line, but they know exactly how to behave on a checkride or when dealing with management.

 

[CFI A&P]

Kind of on this subject, I recall being a gate agent working a CRJ going to SNA and there was an issue with the autopilot. Autothrottles worked, but the plane would otherwise need to be handflown. The Captain refused the 1 hour leg and I asked (in a student pilot way, not a gate agent way) if the CRJ can not be hand flown. She said, "It is WAY too sensitive to be flown at cruise by hand, modern airliners need autopilot up there, we can only handfly the departures and arrivals". I was 18 and just went "Oh, OK". Well, rather than ground the plane, dispatch decides to try their luck and use the aircraft for a longer flight to PHX. The next crew takes the plane, just making a comment like "Damn it, I guess we'll just get a block altitude, it's only a 90 minute flight" when mx told them about the issue in the bridge. As soon as the new CA said that, I told him what the previous CA had said (who had a mid 1980s DOH by the way), and, well, he said something super sexist and it wasn't really productive lol.

The Captain might have used that strategy to refuse the flight instead of saying the truth in front of everyone. "My co-pilot is pretty terrible and this would end up with me hand flying this thing while basically being single pilot."

 

[Stratopilot]

It’s me you’re talking about…. Isn’t it?

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

We hear stories like yours from time to time but fortunately examples of that are far and few between. It has no place in aviation. I never saw nor know of anyone that was exposed to it during my PPL, military, commuter, major airline training.

Isn't this the way that military instructors typically behave? Not sure if it's the way they do it now, but wasn't it the norm back in the non PC era of the 60's?

There are multiple versions of this kind of cat.

There is the non-self aware version. They’re easy to spot and deal with, and generally they act all surprised when they get called out and/or culled. They usually stomp off all pissed, complaining about the state of things because no one recognizes their skill/genius.

The way, WAY more difficult version of this person is the one who IS self-aware, and they actively modify their behavior anytime there is someone of authority around. They truly can be a giant PITA to deal with, and can wreak serious havoc before they finally get ferreted out.

Both versions can have FIM (friends in management), which can significantly increase the PITA factor.

Back in 2001, I was just a punk kid. I hadn't worked in psych yet. So I wasn't used to confrontation or aggression and I knew nothing about behaviors and how to deal with them. Now after working 10 yrs. in psych and two years in law enforcement. I can pretty much handle any personality type. But I agree with your observation about this type.

 

[Bamaaviator]

My very first instructor during my PPL training was retired Air Force. He flew Phantoms in Nam, was a training pilot and retired on the F-15C. He would literally cuss you out in the plane and call you all manner of names like a "f-kin' p**sy", or a f**got, when you did stuff wrong and immediately take the controls. Like one time he was like. "Are you f-kin' stupid, or are you just f-kin'? I was just a lil' punk 23 yr. old I wasn't prepared for that. I was very intimidated by him and questioned myself numerous times before I did something in the plane, so as not to draw his ire. I wasn't learning under his tutelage as a result. I asked for a new instructor. My next instructor I had for only a few months, then he escaped to the airlines, back when regionals were hiring at 250 tt.

I can tell you that the VAST majority of military/former military IP’s are not like that. I myself am not prior military, but I currently work for the military as a civilian contractor/IP. I actually found military IP’s to be more educational both on the ground and in the cockpit. I didn’t have very good experiences with some civilian CFI’s though. Many of them just ‘didn’t care’ to teach anything. They just seemed to be only interested in filling up the logbook. That’s when I straight up told 4 separate CFI’s, directly, “you are fired.” They seemed surprised when I said that to them, probably because they’ve never had anyone say that to them before. They’re used to ‘using’ students and getting away with it. I was NOT having any of that.

My philosophy towards teaching has always been, if your gonna teach, at least look the damn part, teach the lesson to yourself before showing up (preparedness), and start acting like you have a vested interest in the student, and not yourself. Many CFI’s come to work thinking they are going to be the ones doing the flying. You are actually going to work to teach someone else how to fly. There are many different hats to wear in aviation. Knowing what type of hat to wear for the job is important. There is an instructor pilot hat, and then there’s the pilot hat. Some just don’t know when to put up the pilot hat, and put on the IP hat.

Now, granted, that has been MY experience. Everyone has a different experience. I’m fully aware that many might have had a vastly different experience than me. I have seen some military/retired military IP’s that don’t seem to enjoy teaching, and don’t have any patience with it. But they are the rare exception. I have had a couple of really good civilian instructors for add on ratings, but most civilians I’ve had in MY experience were highly unprofessional, and didn’t seem to give a damn about anything other than their logbook. When I did my initial training, I was taught by a military guy and it was a very good learning experience. I thoroughly enjoyed it. However anyone who yells, regardless of their background, needs to just quit teaching altogether. Students do not learn effectively that way. I’ve heard a rare few say they WANT their instructors to yell at them, but they’re probably masochists anyway. I had a student tell me when I was a brand new instructor “I want you to actually yell at me when I screw up.” I laughed and said nah man, that won’t be necessary, unless you are very close to killing both of us, then I will.

Teaching requires of bit of an understanding of psychology. Students are not on the same page as the instructor when it comes to perceptions, especially in initial training. With many people, it takes time for some concepts to ‘click.’ Another thing I’ve learned is that sometimes highly experienced instructors with loads of flight time may actually have a lot less patience than someone with very low time, although, that’s more the exception than the rule.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I can tell you that the VAST majority of military/former military IP’s are not like that. I myself am not prior military, but I currently work for the military as a civilian contractor/IP. I actually found military IP’s to be more educational both on the ground and in the cockpit. I didn’t have very good experiences with some civilian CFI’s though. Many of them just ‘didn’t care’ to teach anything. They just seemed to be only interested in filling up the logbook. That’s when I straight up told 4 separate CFI’s, directly, “you are fired.” They seemed surprised when I said that to them, probably because they’ve never had anyone say that to them before. They’re used to ‘using’ students and getting away with it. I was NOT having any of that.

My philosophy towards teaching has always been, if your gonna teach, at least look the damn part, teach the lesson to yourself before showing up (preparedness), and start acting like you have a vested interest in the student, and not yourself. Many CFI’s come to work thinking they are going to be the ones doing the flying. You are actually going to work to teach someone else how to fly. There are many different hats to wear in aviation. Knowing what type of hat to wear for the job is important. There is an instructor pilot hat, and then there’s the pilot hat. Some just don’t know when to put up the pilot hat, and put on the IP hat.

Now, granted, that has been MY experience. Everyone has a different experience. I’m fully aware that many might have had a vastly different experience than me. I have seen some military/retired military IP’s that don’t seem to enjoy teaching, and don’t have any patience with it. But they are the rare exception. I have had a couple of really good civilian instructors for add on ratings, but most civilians I’ve had in MY experience were highly unprofessional, and didn’t seem to give a damn about anything other than their logbook. When I did my initial training, I was taught by a military guy and it was a very good learning experience. I thoroughly enjoyed it. However anyone who yells, regardless of their background, needs to just quit teaching altogether. Students do not learn effectively that way. I’ve heard a rare few say they WANT their instructors to yell at them, but they’re probably masochists anyway. I had a student tell me when I was a brand new instructor “I want you to actually yell at me when I screw up.” I laughed and said nah man, that won’t be necessary, unless you are very close to killing both of us, then I will.

Teaching requires of bit of an understanding of psychology. Students are not on the same page as the instructor when it comes to perceptions, especially in initial training. With many people, it takes time for some concepts to ‘click.’ Another thing I’ve learned is that sometimes highly experienced instructors with loads of flight time may actually have a lot less patience than someone with very low time, although, that’s more the exception than the rule.

So much this.

My biggest critique of my current place’s training department is that there isn’t really any training unless you happen to get one of the few stand outs that work there. Mostly it’s a disinterested, overworked dude sitting in the back that will tell you when you messed up, but rarely offers any advice how to do better. There is a difference between being good at something and knowing how to transfer that knowledge to someone else.

 

[mrivc211]

Perhaps a generalization, but it seems those who've flown freight/commuters/RJs seem to roll with the punches a little easier. Always chuckle at the time one of my first captains at SJI had a mini meltdown because he ACTUALLY had to stop the airplane for a brief moment while rampers got into position on a 100+ degree sunny day.

Kinda like those folks that complain about seeing constructions workers 'standing around', some just haven't every truly labored a day in their life and it shows.

TFAYD

 

[zmiller4]

But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t situations where taking an airplane without an autopilot might not be the safest idea. Had a long day? Other pilot isn’t the best pilot monitoring? Complicated SID/STAR (check out some of the arrivals into DCA/IAD)? Lots of weather enroute? You need to look at the big picture in terms of TEM.

This.

Especially on short legs we’d hand fly the whole thing all the time. But one time we were scheduled LAX-RNO when Reno was getting a winter storm with 35kts out of the west on the ground. And our plane not only had no AP, it had not flight director—which means no wind shear guidance. We immediately asked for a new plane and got one, which was good because the nonprecision approach at night was somewhat hectic as it was (multiple wind shear advisories).

 

[ChasenSFO]

Point one: The CRJ doesn’t have any autothrottles.

ROFL all this time I didn't know that, I asked her if they were working and she said "yes", and I saw the CRJ has the ability to select a desired speed so I always thought it was autothrottle up until now. So it just basically pitches for desired speed? I guess she wasn't in the mood to explain systems to me though I was very curious.

Thanks for all that insight. Very valid points, handflying can quickly go from fun or no big deal to a hindrance on safety and efficiency in those situations for sure.

The Captain might have used that strategy to refuse the flight instead of saying the truth in front of everyone. "My co-pilot is pretty terrible and this would end up with me hand flying this thing while basically being single pilot."

LOL, giving her the benefit of the doubt probably having started on the Metroliner, very possible!

So much this.

My biggest critique of my current place’s training department is that there isn’t really any training unless you happen to get one of the few stand outs that work there. Mostly it’s a disinterested, overworked dude sitting in the back that will tell you when you messed up, but rarely offers any advice how to do better. There is a difference between being good at something and knowing how to transfer that knowledge to someone else.

At pretty much every job I've ever had, the best trainers were usually not the best at the job, but just really good at teaching and communicating. The best workers often totally sucked at teaching and couldn't do it. Some pilots I know who I think are great pilots got their CFI and couldn't hack it. They're still great pilots, teaching isn't for everyone.

 

[HJB]

In general, I've seen the most problems with RTP guys. They've been flying helicopters for years and don't have any 121 experience. IMO they have proved to be the most difficult to get through training. It's really beyond me why regional carriers place a premium on getting these guys up to speed when cadets from pipeline universities are readily available. Fortunately at Envoy, this has shifted and cadets are now getting the nod when it would be between the two.

Ok, but can you see why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?

 

[Screaming_Emu]

ROFL all this time I didn't know that, I asked her if they were working and she said "yes", and I saw the CRJ has the ability to select a desired speed so I always thought it was autothrottle up until now. So it just basically pitches for desired speed? I guess she wasn't in the mood to explain systems to me though I was very curious.

Thanks for all that insight. Very valid points, handflying can quickly go from fun or no big deal to a hindrance on safety and efficiency in those situations for sure.


LOL, giving her the benefit of the doubt probably having started on the Metroliner, very possible!



At pretty much every job I've ever had, the best trainers were usually not the best at the job, but just really good at teaching and communicating. The best workers often totally sucked at teaching and couldn't do it. Some pilots I know who I think are great pilots got their CFI and couldn't hack it. They're still great pilots, teaching isn't for everyone.

Regarding speed mode, yup. Elevator controls your airspeed. Works pretty well down low, through about 15k (if I remember correctly) time to switch to VS as it tends to be a bit searchy.

About instructors, I was lucky enough to have the best instructor I’ve ever had for most of my upgrade. Knowledgeable, friendly, pushed us really hard, but I had a great time. Mess something up, he’d not only point it out but would know exactly WHY we made the mistake and how to correct it. Then he’d circle back to the same thing later in the lesson to ensure that learning had taken place.

 

[pilot4500]

I spent a lot of time as a flight instructor. I always tried to get a feel for how my students learn, because everyone learns differently. What works great for one student might not work at all for another student. It is important for an instructor to figure out what works best for different students.

 

[jhugz]

I’m a mediocre pilot at best and made it to the left seat of a 74. As much as I hate agreeing with Mikey it starts to become less about stick and rudder stuff and more about cockpit personality. Can you be an effective leader in good times and bad? Can you make effective decisions using CRM? Can you be an effective crew member and keep me out of trouble if I make a mistake without being an ass about it? Can I get through a 14 hour flight with you without wanting to murder you?

You don’t have to be Chuck Yeager to succeed. So much of this career is work ethic. Study hard and put in the extra effort in the training environment (they notice).

To wrap up, if my dumb ass can do it, anyone can. I’d probably not worry about this nonsense though and just study for the multi big guy.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I’m a mediocre pilot at best and made it to the left seat of a 74. As much as I hate agreeing with Mikey it starts to become less about stick and rudder stuff and more about cockpit personality. Can you be an effective leader in good times and bad? Can you make effective decisions using CRM? Can you be an effective crew member and keep me out of trouble if I make a mistake without being an ass about it? Can I get through a 14 hour flight with you without wanting to murder you?

You don’t have to be Chuck Yeager to succeed. So much of this career is work ethic. Study hard and put in the extra effort in the training environment (they notice).

To wrap up, if my dumb ass can do it, anyone can. I’d probably not worry about this nonsense though and just study for the multi big guy.

But can you fly a 747-100?