Norwegian Hiring 787/777 FO's FLL

[pete2800]

The best paid wb job in the US....

FO 5.500 USD
Relief Captain 7.500 USD
Captain 10.000 USD

Edit: But first of all you have to invest, because there is a 3 year bond with Norwegian.....

5500/month for a 787 FO?

Haha, there were months I made that as a DHC-8 FO....

Not picking on you, but there is a thread wide assumption that is who will be applying for these positions. While some might, you have to remember this is South Florida. There are close to 40 Avianca pilots living in South Florida, many of whom are flying the 787 for less money than this pays. Most have green cards or even citizenship and might well look to this as a way to cut down on their commute to Bogota for a higher QOL and more money. That is just one example. There are dozen, if not hundreds, of other Central and South American green card holders flying for those dirt bag outfits in South Florida. The Norwegian job would be a huge step up for them in many cases.



Again, not picking on one person but any talk of scab or black lists is laughable to someone who has been in the profession for more than 20 years. For those of us who were working for major airlines in the 80s and saw the advent of the regional jet, we could easily have said something similar for any pilot who would take our jobs by going to fly a CRJ/ERJ for a "commuter". After all, they were directly responsible for the loss of all mainline BAC 1-11, 737-200, DC-9 and Fokker 28/100 flying on the east coast .

Anyone here remember the RJDC? Started by Comair and ASA pilots who wanted scope eliminated so they could get more and bigger jets!! That was a group really helpful to major airline pilots as well .


Typhoonpilot

Which came first? Mainline selling out scope for pay raises, or young pilots taking mainline jobs in RJs? As the old saying goes, it takes two to tango.

 

[derg]

So essentially mad dog FO pay to captain a 787.

Oh, they'll fill it.

Right after IOE the pilot will be knocking down UAL's hiring department door screaming that he's got international heavy jet time and how DARE they not prioritize him.

 

[MikeD]

Lets just clarify since no picket lines are being crossed, an American choosing to work for Norwegian out of FLL isn't technically a scab.

Scab has a very specific definition, regarding crossing a picket line or working struck work.

Working for lowball pay/QOL like this is not necesarily the smartest thing in my opinion, especially these days; however how anyone gets the word "scab" out of this, im having a hard time seeing.

 

[BobDDuck]

But someone who flew for Freedom, GoJet, or PSA is ok?

Freedom A was an alter ego carrier.

GoJet was an alter ego carrier (although the DOT denied the single carrier petition.

PSA was what?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Scab has a very specific definition, regarding crossing a picket line or working struck work.

Working for lowball pay/QOL like this is not necesarily the smartest thing in my opinion, especially these days; however how anyone gets the word "scab" out of this, im having a hard time seeing.

It's an utter misappropriation of the term.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Freedom A was an alter ego carrier.

GoJet was an alter ego carrier (although the DOT denied the single carrier petition.

PSA was what?

You terk er jerbs!

 

[mastermags]

Despite its safety record, the aviation industry in the USA—and how we treat our pilots—should be a point of national shame. When I tell people how much I make, they all, to a one, are shocked, and agree that it's completely not right. And this is AFTER first-year pay was almost -doubled-.

So in a way, it'd be a lot easier to be sympathetic to the plight of the major airlines if they showed half this amount of care about the fate of their regional brethren... because, frankly, the pay and working conditions of major airline pilots are riding, in no small part, on the backs of regional pilots, without whom their companies would be less profitable and their pay likewise correspondingly lower*.

Now, I'm not blaming the pilots outright—management will take whatever road they can to have as much cheap flying as they can, after all—but I'm saying that if the health of the US aviation industry was actually an issue for the airline pilot unions (instead of the high-end wages and work rules for the elite, pulling everyone else along with the whole carrot/stick thing), they would have been making noise about regional pay/working conditions for decades until some form of change was achieved.

In this case, we don't care about the work rules of the regionals, or pay, or anything else—NAI comes in above most of the regionals in both, after all. No, we care about NAI only because they're threatening airline routes with major airline equipment, and that's a problem. Fundamentally, it reminds me of the clamor you'd see in business if companies started trying to outsource executives.
It's ok to outsource all the programmer jobs, the data entry jobs, the support jobs, etc... but at the first hint that the management is going to be outsourced, they'd freak out and expect everyone to band together to protect them. And this reminds me of that, to no small degree.



(Affecting, not effecting)

In general, it's a problem that should be addressed. But I agree with you in part—in this case, it's only the problem of the day because we don't want to threaten the elite... which we hope to someday be.

As far as I can tell, America is relatively unique in that we sell the American dream to the poor, who then buy it hook, line and sinker; they vote against their own best interests to protect those at the top, because they believe they'll be there someday. It's a form of collective and individual exceptionalism that we use collectively to effectively keep the poor self-repressed.

So yeah ... NAI bad.

Other things also bad.

Industry, outside of the 'elite', is a dumpster fire. But nobody cares, as long as planes aren't crashing and pilots allow themselves to be strung along for peanuts.

-Fox

A very good write up, but

A) You can't deny that things are moving in the right direction at the regionals in almost every category, and

B) Does your company have a union?

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

They'll have no problem filling the positions because people want to "leap frog" somewhere respectable.

After the 3 year training bond....

 

[derg]

I mean, I'm already an international jet Captain.

Don't even talk to huh!






@amorris311

 

[derg]

After the 3 year training bond....

There are several threads about people questioning the legality of such in order to skirt for another job.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

There are several threads about people questioning the legality of such in order to skirt for another job.

In the corporate world it is a black mark. My last CP called every former CP. I'm pretty sure if I had bailed on a training contract the response from any former employer would have:

Bitch better have my money!!!!

Likely hearing that none of the jobs I've had, wouldn't have hired me. I'm pretty sure major airlines call former employers too. I don't know how vindictive people get in the 121 world so...

Would it be a problem if say Derg from Southern Jets called the Sweedish Chef from Norweejan and he was like:

 

[derg]

In the corporate world it is a black mark. My last CP called every former CP. I'm pretty sure if I had bailed on a training contract the response from any former employer would have:

Bitch better have my money!!!!

Likely hearing that none of the jobs I've had, wouldn't have hired me. I'm pretty sure major airlines call former employers too. I don't know how vindictive people get in the 121 world so...

Would it be a problem if say Derg from Southern Jets called the Sweedish Chef from Norweejan and he was like:

BORK!

I really don't know what goes into the background check but I do know some consideration goes into the "political machinations" of flying on the 135 side of aviation. Y'all be buckwild!

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

BORK!

I really don't know what goes into the background check but I do know some consideration goes into the "political machinations" of flying on the 135 side of aviation. Y'all be buckwild!

I know. Hence my desire to leave. Just got snap rejected by Allegiant

But my question is if I bailed on a 121 like Norwegian to get hired at a 121 in the US.

Would the 121 consider the fact I was bailing on a training contract?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[derg]

I know. Hence my desire to leave. Just got snap rejected by Allegiant

But my question is if I bailed on a 121 like Norwegian to get hired at a 121 in the US.

Would the 121 consider the fact I was bailing on a training contract?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, what's the rest of your resume look like?

Depends on a number of things. But you're going to have some headwinds from being one of those from Norwegian.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Well, what's the rest of your resume look like?

"Depends"

Gotcha, thanks Uncle Derg. You're the best!

 

[etflies]

I can't help but think this will be the camel's nose under the tent for the "flag-of-convenience" issue. Correct me if I'm wrong here but a Norwegian carrier "based" in Ireland employing US workers via a 3rd party contractor from yet another country is dangerously close to starting down the same slippery slope our maritime industry works under. And that is bad news bears for the rest of us.

 

[derg]

Some 135 carriers and owners, "SOME", will negatively embellish your employment history because of office politics and various degrees of frustration that you're leaving.

I know a guy who worked for an owner, worked his ass off, was a great asset but once he decided that for his career (and sanity), he wanted the stability of a 121 carrier. The owner went nuts, sent him papers that he owed the company (out of the blue) tens of thousands of dollars, called his house, blew up his mobile phone, and just became a complete Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde on him.

Any hiring department knows this stuff goes on. Sometimes it's for good measure, other times its just the company acting like a petulant kindergartner but the important part is the applicants work history. Is there a history of jumping around operator to operator or does the applicant have a solid, stable work history, looks great on his application and it's a single operator that vociferously declares that he owes them thirty trillion dollars?

On the Norwegian thing, I wouldn't get that stink on me for anything. You evaluators first thought may be "What in the world was he thinking going there in the first place?" You're far, FAAAARRRRRRRR (footstomp, footstomp, footstomp) better off being a high time ExpressJet FO than a former high-time ExpressJet FO that left for Norwegian when it comes to looking sharp for a pilot selection team.

 

[Der rote Baron]

Would be interesting to see how they want to handle the training bond. In Europe you have to pay the money upfront either in cash or you have to submit a bank guarantee. They'll pay it back year after year.

 

[Mike Wise]

BORK!

I really don't know what goes into the background check but I do know some consideration goes into the "political machinations" of flying on the 135 side of aviation. Y'all be buckwild!

As a side note: JetBlue background checks are VERY thorough. That's one airline that takes integrity remarkably serious when it comes to the hiring process.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

So essentially mad dog FO pay to captain a 787.

Oh, they'll fill it.

Right after IOE the pilot will be knocking down UAL's hiring department door screaming that he's got international heavy jet time and how DARE they not prioritize him.

Well, what exactly was the initial reason being against Norwegian shuttle in the first place? It was the fear of a shady operation registered in one place, titled in another (if you will), crews under a Thailand contract, and sub-standard conditions compared to western airlines.

But now that they are offering American contracts, in full accordance with American labor laws, based at Fort Lauderdale, paying a rate they think will get American pilots to work for them, what's wrong with that? If the conditions or pay are truly substandard, no one will go there and the pay will have to come up.

There are plenty of widebody CAs in FLL/MIA flying at US carriers like Amerijet (767), Florida West, Centurion, and the other widebody cargo outfits out of Florida, and they all pay less than what Norwegian may offer. Add the other fact that guys for any number of reason(s) never get the call to fly for a legacy, are they supposed to just not accept any job in order to ensure Legacy pilots aren't harmed?

Sorry, but I can't get on the ALPA Armageddon boat of Norwegian anymore. Not since they are offering American-based jobs for American-certificated pilots.

And don't forget.... a lot of pilots here (through ALPA) were against my current employer. Lawsuits were filed. Huge petitions and screaming done in DC. It worked well enough to put my company under the citizenship test. It successfully delayed our launch from the initial target of 2005/2006 into Aug 2007.

Make no mistake. If ALPA pilots had it their way, my employer wouldn't have existed and I wouldn't even have a job. No, Virgin America wasn't a foreign airline. No, Branson wasn't going to create the next Delta here. No, it wasn't going to set up more foreign rich businessmen to start airlines in America. No, we weren't going to be foreign citizens working in the USA. Instead, we hired US pilots, with US certificates and medicals, US citizens, and earning US dollars, based in the USA. In fact, we became a safe haven for the tons of permanently furloughed pilots from ALPA carriers like Aloha, Midwest, and those airlines that went belly up in 2006-2008. Our payrates weren't great (pretty bad actually), but the market tanked 6 months after we started. Once it turned around, we did get pay raises. Our pay didn't hit legacy wages, but did fall competitively in the jetBlue-Spirit-Frontier-Allegiant-Sun Country LCC market rate. And in the end, we became a successful Major airline that caught the attention of one legacy airline that ended up buying us.

Happy ever after? Who knows. But if ALPA had it its way, we would have never been here.

When it comes to certain airlines, ALPA loves to scream them some bloody murder. I take the good ol step back and ask myself, "Is this something that basically affects only legacy pilots, especially widebody ones?" Once that musters a "yeah" I pretty much move on.
ME3 is a big-3 legacy airline threat. The other majors (Alaska/Virgin/jetBlue types) all codeshare with them. And why not? If someone has to get from Spokane, WA to Dubai, why not be able to buy a ticket on Alaska that moves them from GEG to SEA, and then connect to an EK 777 from SEA-DXB? This way both Emirates and Alaska profit from it. It's not like Alaska/Virgin/jetBlue types are going to Europe or the Middle East or Asia any time soon. So may as well let the airline codeshare and make money through connections. The ones that stand to lose are legacy widebody pilots. Since that doesn't apply to me, why should I be against something that directly profits my employer?