Dispatching without an alternate

Kmacmillan said:
Actually the dispatchers job is to dispatch a safe and legal flight considering regulations, country requirements and company policies. My job doesn't say include personal preferences that were not communicated in advance.

Not saying I won't help. But hey call before I cut the release. If it matters that much to you. Otherwise - give me a good reason....


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Exactly. Well said. Thank you.

I find it interesting to note that alot of the thoughts expressed in this thread are coming from the type of experience from that individual's specific point of view as related to their experience as they know it. There was a point in time where I would have never thought one could safely and legally dispatch a flight to airports under constant threat of attacks..until I did. We developed coordinated plans between the customer, overflight permits, and alternates that not only considered our Ops Specs, but protected the assets and customer on board the aircraft. It became a more complicated plan that involved more than whether we needed an alternate to meet weather minimums at destination or C055 mins at the planned alternate. Having an open mind allows one to go to places they never thought possible and in some instances, makes you proud to be a part of helping the best and brightest in our nation do their jobs.

I just hope that this thread and forum becomes a little more about supporting each other in our small dispatch world and opening up discussions for all to learn from. And maybe even broaden horizons and minds.
 
Flagship_dxer said:
I know one thing is certain is that if I as a dispatcher add an alternate where it is not required or a bunch of extra fuel and the captain or management asks why, simply saying "because I'm the dispatcher" isnt going to cut it. I'm likely to have management sentencing me to re-training and will possibly/probably be written up.
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Same would be true at my shop. Our flight department lets our capt do what ever they want.


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McCrosky said:
3-7?!?!? What paradise do you work in!! 3-7 is a nice easy night on a holiday!



And I have asked over and over that these "personal minimums" be published in some manual.

I feel like if your personal min fuels are 75% higher than the rest of the crew force, you may wanna reanalyze your career choice.



We used to do that, until certain people either got told to stop or we compared responses and noticed that they replies to whrite ups were the EXACT same verbiage with only the dates/flights/name changed

Something that puzzles me and its come up again and again from both sides. If there is a need to bump revenue, it seems that the safe/legal aspect is different than if there's no requirement to bump revenue. In my (albeit warped) mind, it's either always safe/legal or it's never safe/legal.

It generally sounds like we, the dispatch group, just don't wanna be bothered, either due workload or lack of interest. I freely admit I use phone call avoidance fuel many days. Either because it's Friday and vacations starts tomorrow or or Hub A is gonna be covered up, somHub B and Hub C get plenty of fuel to keep them from even possibly calling me. Is it the"right" thing to do?? Nope. Is it doing my job to the best of my ability??? Nope. But when we get a properly staffed office and functioning software then come talk to me
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Well I'd say that 4 is normal where I work, it's exclusively international heavy jet. We get bogged down with checklists but I think I've heard that even at the majors 7 is the most you usually see when you're on the international desk.

Someone back me up... Isn't 3-7 typical for transatlantic and transpacific dispatching in a shift? I know of two total companies for sure, both cargo.
 
Mainline_or_bust said:
Well I'd say that 4 is normal where I work, it's exclusively international heavy jet. We get bogged down with checklists but I think I've heard that even at the majors 7 is the most you usually see when you're on the international desk. Someone back me up... Isn't 3-7 typical for transatlantic and transpacific dispatching in a shift? I know of two total companies for sure, both cargo.
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Never seen 3. I'd say 7-10 would be the norm and some desks, upwards of 14.
 
Clrd2land said:
I just hope that this thread and forum becomes a little more about supporting each other in our small dispatch world and opening up discussions for all to learn from. And maybe even broaden horizons and minds.
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I second this! It's absurd to me that a thread that started out as a question to fellow dispatchers turned into some attacking others. This is a great resource to learn from each other - the blatant disrespect needs to stop.

Now this thread originally posed a question about whether to add an alternate with a CAVOK forecast. Would I plan one if there were no other factors that would deem it prudent or necessary to do so? No.

Then it seemed to become a discussion on the power struggle between Pilot and Dispatcher and bruised egos. This is where it gets ridiculous to me. It's not supposed to be a power struggle. It's not supposed to be them against us and vice versa. There is a reason for joint authority and we should all respect that instead of letting egos get in the way. We are all professionals - act like it!

If there really are no other factors and adding an alternate is not required, the end result of costing more to carry one, causing a delay, bumping payload, adding to the workload, etc...is ridiculous. I feel that having a quick convo with the pilot, letting them know the wx is good all around, multiple approaches are available, winds are favorable, etc... can usually assure them from whatever it is that is concerning them. Or like I said before, hearing them out to make sure I didn't screw up or that there isn't something I'm not aware of. It doesn't take but a minute or two of your life to have a convo and make sure everyone is on the same page and comfortable, with a safe and legal flight plan. And usually in the end, that's all it takes to get them on their way. With some, maybe a little extra gas if they were planned skinny already. If, on the other hand, they still want an alternate, fine. I did my job. It's on a recorded line. I'd advise the reason for the delay, etc to my lead/sup and move on to the next.
 
womanpilot73 said:
Never seen 3. I'd say 7-10 would be the norm and some desks, upwards of 14.
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I knew we had a checklist issue but 14!? Couldn't plan that many as we spend as much time planning as filling out a form. We that and we have to input tons of information that was automated in my last job, crew names emp numbers, MELs etc etc. Still bravo if you're doing 10-14 no way at my place.


womanpilot73 said:
I second this! It's absurd to me that a thread that started out as a question to fellow dispatchers turned into some attacking others. This is a great resource to learn from each other - the blatant disrespect needs to stop.

Now this thread originally posed a question about whether to add an alternate with a CAVOK forecast. Would I plan one if there were no other factors that would deem it prudent or necessary to do so? No.

Then it seemed to become a discussion on the power struggle between Pilot and Dispatcher and bruised egos. This is where it gets ridiculous to me. It's not supposed to be a power struggle. It's not supposed to be them against us and vice versa. There is a reason for joint authority and we should all respect that instead of letting egos get in the way. We are all professionals - act like it!

If there really are no other factors and adding an alternate is not required, the end result of costing more to carry one, causing a delay, bumping payload, adding to the workload, etc...is ridiculous. I feel that having a quick convo with the pilot, letting them know the wx is good all around, multiple approaches are available, winds are favorable, etc... can usually assure them from whatever it is that is concerning them. Or like I said before, hearing them out to make sure I didn't screw up or that there isn't something I'm not aware of. It doesn't take but a minute or two of your life to have a convo and make sure everyone is on the same page and comfortable, with a safe and legal flight plan. And usually in the end, that's all it takes to get them on their way. With some, maybe a little extra gas if they were planned skinny already. If, on the other hand, they still want an alternate, fine. I did my job. It's on a recorded line. I'd advise the reason for the delay, etc to my lead/sup and move on to the next.
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Agreed
 
Mainline_or_bust said:
I knew we had a checklist issue but 14!? Couldn't plan that many as we spend as much time planning as filling out a form. We that and we have to input tons of information that was automated in my last job, crew names emp numbers, MELs etc etc. Still bravo if you're doing 10-14 no way at my place. Agreed
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My last shop had these ridiculous checklists...spent more time filling them out than it took to plan the actual flight. SMH
 
womanpilot73 said:
I second this! It's absurd to me that a thread that started out as a question to fellow dispatchers turned into some attacking others..
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Except for the fact that the thread was created not for an actual discussion but rather just to vent/get validation about a particular pilot who likes to have an alternate on his release. OP has since disappeared since he did not have the backing that he had hoped for and now were left bickering back and fourth about what really should just be common sense. "How to not suck at dispatching 101 - Learn to pick your battles with flight crew, crew scheduling or MX"

Listen, we all have been though this stuff, jumping on a online forum complaining about how a pilot a pilot hurt your feelings is so petty. Grow some thicker skin and move on with life.

CS0290 said:
I think for me, it boils down to not trusting you as a dispatcher. That rustles my jimmies for some reason.
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CS0290 said:
But when a pilot can't explain why or even bother to have the conversation without demanding the alternate be added and he/she won't go without it, that's what bugs me.
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CS0290 said:
It's not an arrogance issue. But you'd just let a pilot push you around because he could?
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CS0290 said:
This is exactly the point I was trying to get to. Only took how many replies to get to it? ;)
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That's true. I think we all have things that bother us at work. Whether it's a fight with a captain, a dumb diversion, or just flat out something you missed. I think the trick is to try and let it go. See the next day as a new day and try not to bring the work home to the wife and kids (or whomever). If you need to vent on here, I understand. It's better than pushing everyone else away.
 
Eskhobbs said:
Except for the fact that the thread was created not for an actual discussion but rather just to vent/get validation about a particular pilot who likes to have an alternate on his release. OP has since disappeared since he did not have the backing that he had hoped for and now were left bickering back and fourth about what really should just be common sense. "How to not suck at dispatching 101 - Learn to pick your battles with flight crew, crew scheduling or MX" Listen, we all have been though this stuff, jumping on a online forum complaining about how a pilot a pilot hurt your feelings is so petty. Grow some thicker skin and move on with life.
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I get where you're coming from but I also say no need to be disrespectful about it. Maybe I'm just getting old...lol. :D I just don't see the point in some people being so rude about it. There are ways of getting a point across without being so blatantly disrespectful. It creates a hostile environment here and how is that helping anything?
 
Eskhobbs said:
Except for the fact that the thread was created not for an actual discussion but rather just to vent/get validation about a particular pilot who likes to have an alternate on his release. OP has since disappeared since he did not have the backing that he had hoped for and now were left bickering back and fourth about what really should just be common sense. "How to not suck at dispatching 101 - Learn to pick your battles with flight crew, crew scheduling or MX"

Listen, we all have been though this stuff, jumping on a online forum complaining about how a pilot a pilot hurt your feelings is so petty. Grow some thicker skin and move on with life.
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Still here. And I don't need validation from someone like you anyways. Some people posted some great replies and that was the discussion I was hoping for. Thanks to the ones who posted constructive criticism and your personal views and opinions on the issue!


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SpiceWeasel said:
What world do we live in where I can actually talk to dispatch "before" you cut the release. 100% of the time I get to the gate 30-45 prior and that's the first I've seen a release.
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A world where telephones work from the hotel, or from home. :-) You don't have to wait 'til you get planeside to call.

At a former employer, pilots routinely called from the hotel before reporting for duty. I thought it was great. It was a chance to brief the crew on how their day was shaping up. It was a chance to get out ahead of any problems that the crew might have. It occasionally saved a potential crew duty time problem by delaying their report time. And it was an opportunity to do a little team building. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, it gave the crew a little time to mentally prepare themselves if they knew they were heading into a bad day.
 
Flying Saluki said:
A world where telephones work from the hotel, or from home. :) You don't have to wait 'til you get planeside to call.

At a former employer, pilots routinely called from the hotel before reporting for duty. I thought it was great. It was a chance to brief the crew on how their day was shaping up. It was a chance to get out ahead of any problems that the crew might have. It occasionally saved a potential crew duty time problem by delaying their report time. And it was an opportunity to do a little team building. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, it gave the crew a little time to mentally prepare themselves if they knew they were heading into a bad day.
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I honestly don't want to look up anything until I get to work. Maybe whether the flight is on time (iPhone app) and how the weather is (The Weather Channel), but that's the extent of unpaid discovery time for me.

Also, under 117 you can not modify a report time in rest to prevent a "duty time problem."
 
SpiceWeasel said:
I honestly don't want to look up anything until I get to work. Maybe whether the flight is on time (iPhone app) and how the weather is (The Weather Channel), but that's the extent of unpaid discovery time for me.

Also, under 117 you can not modify a report time in rest to prevent a "duty time problem."
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Well, as I said, it was a former employer (long ago and far away). :)

As for the rest of it; paid or not, it only benefits you. If you prefer to let the day to take you by surprise, more power to you.
 
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