Dispatching without an alternate

CS0290 said:
I know everyone works at different shops with different rules but think Part 121 Flag for this. A flight is planned in Europe, 1.5 hours, and this is your WX:

TAF EDDP 151700Z 1518/1618 36005KT CAVOK

Do you add an alternate? And if you don't and the captain asks "will you please redo my plan and add an alternate because I don't feel comfortable going without one," do you do it?


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TN-DX said:
What are the trends? Origin and surrounding WX?

My favorite question to ask is "Are you seeing something I do not?"

Ultimately it's joint responsibility and if he doesn't want to go without it he doesn't want to. I do like to semi challenge why they are asking and also to make sure nothing is missed.
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Yeah I'm thinking planned without is probably just fine assuming that EDDK and EDDB are both forecasting Cavok or at least 7000. After that how's the trend at the airport and in the area? In the end it probably only costs the company for the 777 what 7500 lbs for the alternate and about 150-250/1000lbs to carry it over so in the end $500.

Not going to fight hard if he wants it, but I'll word everything I say to let him know if there's a delay its on him, if anyone asks it's on him. If he can justify it I'll put alternates, change alternates, add hold or more hold without question until payload starts getting bumped. Then I'll make my concerns be known and let the duty manager know, (Supplemental). If it's outrageous they may call him but even then he's probably going to get it, maybe just with a phone call from the chief later on.

I do like as others have said that they have too many flights to be concerned about 1. Must be NA flights only where everything is canned routes and they can have 30+. On the International desks, I believe at most companies, 3-7 flights is probably a typical day because they take 45 Min to two hours. So 1 pilot making a fuss can actually put you behind yet to not make him happy about the situation is impossible.
 
The other side of this is we are sitting in our chairs at work, safely on the ground, planning these flights according to regulations and company policies so our crews can operate a safe and efficient flight. They are the ones launching into the flight levels in that metal, in another country, getting our packages or passengers safely to their destination.

Remember, pilots also have their personal minimums, based on experiences they've had throughout their flying career. Although I may ask his reasoning to make sure I didn't miss something or something hasn't changed that I'm unaware of, I'm also not going to say no to some extra fuel or an alternate if it's requested unless payload will be bumped and/or a delay taken, and even then i will hear them out and assess the situation and together we will make an appropriate decision. It's not that big of a deal, people.
 
womanpilot73 said:
The other side of this is we are sitting in our chairs at work, safely on the ground, planning these flights according to regulations and company policies so our crews can operate a safe and efficient flight. They are the ones launching into the flight levels in that metal, in another country, getting our packages or passengers safely to their destination.

Remember, pilots also have their personal minimums, based on experiences they've had throughout their flying career. Although I may ask his reasoning to make sure I didn't miss something or something hasn't changed that I'm unaware of, I'm also not going to say no to some extra fuel or an alternate if it's requested unless payload will be bumped and/or a delay taken, and even then i will hear them out and assess the situation and together we will make an appropriate decision. It's not that big of a deal, people.
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I agree, I have personal minimums for my alternates, or preferences would be the better way to say it. I plan based on my experiences of the past the pilot will fly based on his. We don't know what he will be okay with until the plane pushes or you get a call asking for an explanation. Ultimately if he wants it he'll get it, but there is no harm in tell them that the whole of Europe is CAVOK and he's crazy.

Part of our job is playing the role of middle man between the company, yourself and Pilots. My quick math tells me that I'll put at least 100 million pounds of fuel on my airplanes in a year. So how well I play the role Is important.
 
Some of the astronauts at my shop still think we should always carry an alternate (or better yet, if I don't land with 20,000lbs, I'm going to flame out). We went from supplemental to D/F 5 years ago. The flight department (management) had to continually send out communication and educate the pilots about when an alternate is needed or not. We even put a handy dandy flowchart in our FOM. While joint operational control is 50/50, in this case, the pilot has 51%. He is not leaving until an alternate is added on to the release. While I would completely disagree with the request (no matter the reason) I would do what was asked and then ASAP it. While I didn't break the company policy (or a reg) my ERC will want this issue forwarded to the flight department and it would be addressed by management.


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PlaneFan82 said:
Some of the astronauts at my shop still think we should always carry an alternate (or better yet, if I don't land with 20,000lbs, I'm going to flame out). We went from supplemental to D/F 5 years ago. The flight department (management) had to continually send out communication and educate the pilots about when an alternate is needed or not. We even put a handy dandy flowchart in our FOM. While joint operational control is 50/50, in this case, the pilot has 51%. He is not leaving until an alternate is added on to the release. While I would completely disagree with the request (no matter the reason) I would do what was asked and then ASAP it. While I didn't break the company policy (or a reg) my ERC will want this issue forwarded to the flight department and it would be addressed by management.


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So it's perfectly legal and more conservative because an alternate was added and you would ASAP it? Lol that's ridiculous.
 
CRJInTheHeartOfTexas said:
Sounds like you have some ego yourself
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I have no issues with fuel etc being added. There are lots of reasons not add the alternate. The dispatch should always inquire and shame on them if they don't. If the weather is good why worry myself with another airports weather and notams that I now have to monitor. Also when are you calling to add this "alternate". Are you calling well inadvance or last minute. Not all systems are a few button pushes to get a new release. Why should my workload increase because you want something? You should have called while I was planning the flight... it was important to you. Also did you call for a briefing to see why one wasn't added.


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Mainline_or_bust said:
On the International desks, I believe at most companies, 3-7 flights is probably a typical day because they take 45 Min to two hours. So 1 pilot making a fuss can actually put you behind yet to not make him happy about the situation is impossible.
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3-7?!?!? What paradise do you work in!! 3-7 is a nice easy night on a holiday!

womanpilot73 said:
Remember, pilots also have their personal minimums, based on experiences they've had throughout their flying career.
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And I have asked over and over that these "personal minimums" be published in some manual.

I feel like if your personal min fuels are 75% higher than the rest of the crew force, you may wanna reanalyze your career choice.

PlaneFan82 said:
While I didn't break the company policy (or a reg) my ERC will want this issue forwarded to the flight department and it would be addressed by management.
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We used to do that, until certain people either got told to stop or we compared responses and noticed that they replies to whrite ups were the EXACT same verbiage with only the dates/flights/name changed

Something that puzzles me and its come up again and again from both sides. If there is a need to bump revenue, it seems that the safe/legal aspect is different than if there's no requirement to bump revenue. In my (albeit warped) mind, it's either always safe/legal or it's never safe/legal.

It generally sounds like we, the dispatch group, just don't wanna be bothered, either due workload or lack of interest. I freely admit I use phone call avoidance fuel many days. Either because it's Friday and vacations starts tomorrow or or Hub A is gonna be covered up, somHub B and Hub C get plenty of fuel to keep them from even possibly calling me. Is it the"right" thing to do?? Nope. Is it doing my job to the best of my ability??? Nope. But when we get a properly staffed office and functioning software then come talk to me
 
McCrosky said:
And I have asked over and over that these "personal minimums" be published in some manual. I feel like if your personal min fuels are 75% higher than the rest of the crew force, you may wanna reanalyze your career choice.
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Personal minimums can't be published in a manual because they are personal, based on experiences or lack thereof flying into certain places. Part of flight training is to establish personal minimums. It is something that is ingrained. But I certainly wasn't talking about something as extreme as 75% higher than everyone else either. If it's not a reasonable request, it certainly deserves a convo. There's a big difference in adding a thousand pounds verses ten. Lol...
 
Eskhobbs said:
Might have to due with the fact that it's one of your main job duties as a dispatcher...just sayin'
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Actually the dispatchers job is to dispatch a safe and legal flight considering regulations, country requirements and company policies. My job doesn't say include personal preferences that were not communicated in advance.

Not saying I won't help. But hey call before I cut the release. If it matters that much to you. Otherwise - give me a good reason....


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manniax said:
Up to a certain point we can add fuel with no amendment required, but we're supposed to talk to the captain directly for fuel adds. I don't mind talking to the first officer if he is unavailable but we have a policy not to go just through the station as it's led to fuel discrepancies in the past. Anyhow we have to send a new fuel slip for the fueler to add the extra gas on. It's rarely a big issue except when operations doesn't understand I want to talk to the crew directly to verify the requested amount and gets upset about it.
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Sorry, pilot poking my head into the dispatch side. I was saying we as pilots, or rather the captain adds fuel all the time and does not notify dispatch, nor is required to up to a point. Enough for an alternate, no, but some contingency or taxi fuel for sure.
 
z987k said:
Sorry, pilot poking my head into the dispatch side. I was saying we as pilots, or rather the captain adds fuel all the time and does not notify dispatch, nor is required to up to a point. Enough for an alternate, no, but some contingency or taxi fuel for sure.
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Different companies may have different rules. Where I work all fuel adds go through dispatch.
 
Kmacmillan said:
Actually the dispatchers job is to dispatch a safe and legal flight considering regulations, country requirements and company policies. My job doesn't say include personal preferences that were not communicated in advance.

Not saying I won't help. But hey call before I cut the release. If it matters that much to you. Otherwise - give me a good reason....


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What world do we live in where I can actually talk to dispatch "before" you cut the release. 100% of the time I get to the gate 30-45 prior and that's the first I've seen a release.
 
SpiceWeasel said:
What world do we live in where I can actually talk to dispatch "before" you cut the release. 100% of the time I get to the gate 30-45 prior and that's the first I've seen a release.
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Hey some airlines (mine for example) pilots are 1.5 hours early. We cut releases 3-4 hours in advance. I agree with you. But if you have some sort of special requirements above and beyond regulation and policies might be good to relay that early.


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manniax said:
Different companies may have different rules. Where I work all fuel adds go through dispatch.
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It is definitely not uncommon to see on the weight and balance 500-1000 lbs above planned here.
 
Kmacmillan said:
Hey some airlines (mine for example) pilots are 1.5 hours early. We cut releases 3-4 hours in advance. I agree with you. But if you have some sort of special requirements above and beyond regulation and policies might be good to relay that early. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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So while a crew is in rest, they should wake up and call 4 hours in advance and say, "Hey, I know you probably haven't planned my flight yet, but can you add some extra fuel or give me an alternate?". That really doesn't make sense to me. I'm not sure why this seems to be an issue for some. Joint authority is not supposed to be a power struggle. Seems maybe too much testosterone here! Lol... :D
 
mtsu13 said:
Is that the for the wife and kids fuel?


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No, it's for the 2 hour delay APU burn plus the 55 minute taxi and the fact that we get planned within a few minutes of our redispatch fuel all the time. I • you not, we had contingency fuel of 1 KG the other day. Not 1 tonne, but 1KG.
Fuel burns are almost always higher than planned because w&b is just lies on paper. If you don't know that you haven't been around this industry very long.
 
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