Republic Files Chapter 11

[surreal1221]

You see, you still don't get it. There is no winner, no loser. In the words of Curly, the secret to life is just one thing. You figure that out and the rest doesn't matter. Though his words were more colorful.
You seem to be under this delusion that if you make it anywhere else but XJT things will be so much different. Don't get me wrong. You will be paid more at a legacy/LLC than here. Your contract will probably be better. The long term prospects of the company will be better. Heck, I encourage every FO to get their apps out as soon as possible.
But you will still have scheduling issues. Management will still not be able to find their posterior from their elbow. Ground operations? Who do you think runs most of our ground operations? Heck, when LGA melted down last summer it had nothing to do with XJT, it was an issue with Delta.
So the job you will do will still, essentially, be the same thing except a bigger paycheck and bigger airplanes, though only slightly if you are on the DRJ or the Baby Bus. Heck, that's why my brother in the right seat of the 330 doesn't upgrade- he does not want my job.
If you are as miserable now with your life as you seem to be, after the initial excitement of being in the "big leagues" wears off you will probably be just as miserable if you move on.

I actually feel sorry for people like you who are so miserable with their lives.

And I suppose I can say that you also don't seem to get it but that's alright.




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[Flyboy57]

Truth, I used the word incorrectly, but you know what I'm getting at.

Is it right that you can't make a stable career at a regional, nope.

But if you look at what the majors are doing in terms of "insourcing" flying, it's going to be a much, much different industry in another five years.

I admit to being a newbie to 121. Never seriously considered it, but now that I'm here I'm enjoying learning about it.

As to your first question, maybe I'm missing something but I've met some 15-20 year regional captains that are happy and seem to be able to get by on the low six figures they're making. Is OO that much of an exception?

As for the "insourcing", I'm trying to understand how the majors will be able to fly the traditional regional routes more cost efficiently with higher cost labor?

 

[mshunter]

Please don't. I actually bid out of ATL to get away from the babbling nabobs of negativity that seem to permeate that place. People in DTW seem to be much happier with their lives.

I don't listen to it. Most guys in this industry have no idea how good they have it. Two of the dealership's I used to work at are no longer in business. And there was a bunch of cry babies there too.

 

[Cptnchia]

As for the "insourcing", I'm trying to understand how the majors will be able to fly the traditional regional routes more cost efficiently with higher cost labor?

Think about it. Who handles ACS now? Regardless of mainline or subcontractor aircraft, those costs remain the same. The only difference is pilot/FA cost. What is the spread now between the top of scale for a regional and the bottom pay at the mainline? Replacing the 4-5 regional flights a day with 2-3 mainline allows you to increase load factor, which leads to an increase in average fare.

The mainline bankruptcies brought compensation and benefit levels down within range of the regionals, causing the regionals to lose any cost premium they had. In order to regain that, they have to lower costs. Problem is, that leads to employee discontent, and an inability to fulfil the contracts they have, (which they are losing money on,) and angers their mainline overlords.

Is the regional model finished? No, there will always be markets that they can make money in, but the heyday of regional growth is over. Much like all bubbles before, this one burst, and those left behind are paying the bill.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I don't listen to it. Most guys in this industry have no idea how good they have it. Two of the dealership's I used to work at are no longer in business. And there was a bunch of cry babies there too.

Is it true that a lot of salesmen do coke or meth to stay awake and alert???

I was recently told that by a nurse who worked at a dealership once.

 

[Cptnchia]

Is it true that a lot of salesmen do coke or math to stay awake and alert???

I was recently told that by a nurse who worked at a dealership once.

Depends on what kind of math they're doing. Quadratic Equations and Calculus usually put me to sleep.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Depends on what kind of math they're doing. Quadratic Equations and Calculus usually put me to sleep.

Whomp, whomp, whomp! Good one!

 

[MikeOH58]

So... Too early to speculate on whats happening to RAHs alleged C series or should we just keep playing taps with our hats in hand?

I keep hearing people say this bankruptcy is about unloading the 50 seaters, but wouldn't it be fair to assume it's also about wiggling out of a firm aircraft order without penalty?

 

[mshunter]

Is it true that a lot of salesmen do coke or meth to stay awake and alert???

I was recently told that by a nurse who worked at a dealership once.

Honestly I have no clue. I didn't associate with them. But it wouldn't surprise me a bit.

 

[mshunter]

Think about it. Who handles ACS now? Regardless of mainline or subcontractor aircraft, those costs remain the same. The only difference is pilot/FA cost. What is the spread now between the top of scale for a regional and the bottom pay at the mainline? Replacing the 4-5 regional flights a day with 2-3 mainline allows you to increase load factor, which leads to an increase in average fare.

The mainline bankruptcies brought compensation and benefit levels down within range of the regionals, causing the regionals to lose any cost premium they had. In order to regain that, they have to lower costs. Problem is, that leads to employee discontent, and an inability to fulfil the contracts they have, (which they are losing money on,) and angers their mainline overlords.

Is the regional model finished? No, there will always be markets that they can make money in, but the heyday of regional growth is over. Much like all bubbles before, this one burst, and those left behind are paying the bill.

The only problem I see with what you've said here, is the gap is widening. American and United just got raises, Delta is next. And correct me if I am wrong, but one reason Delta's recent TA failed is because of what was essentially a B scale for the 190?

 

[derg]

Well there was more to it, but a little birdy tells me that there's going to be an accelerated effort to bring more of the regional feed to mainline. We're talking 70-seat plus.

 

[mshunter]

Well there was more to it, but a little birdy tells me that there's going to be an accelerated effort to bring more of the regional feed to mainline. We're talking 70-seat plus.

What's your current fleet utilization look like?

 

[amd87]

You see, you still don't get it. There is no winner, no loser. In the words of Curly, the secret to life is just one thing. You figure that out and the rest doesn't matter. Though his words were more colorful.
You seem to be under this delusion that if you make it anywhere else but XJT things will be so much different. Don't get me wrong. You will be paid more at a legacy/LLC than here. Your contract will probably be better. The long term prospects of the company will be better. Heck, I encourage every FO to get their apps out as soon as possible.
But you will still have scheduling issues. Management will still not be able to find their posterior from their elbow. Ground operations? Who do you think runs most of our ground operations? Heck, when LGA melted down last summer it had nothing to do with XJT, it was an issue with Delta.
So the job you will do will still, essentially, be the same thing except a bigger paycheck and bigger airplanes, though only slightly if you are on the DRJ or the Baby Bus. Heck, that's why my brother in the right seat of the 330 doesn't upgrade- he does not want my job.
If you are as miserable now with your life as you seem to be, after the initial excitement of being in the "big leagues" wears off you will probably be just as miserable if you move on.

I actually feel sorry for people like you who are so miserable with their lives.

Wow. The guy has been an FO at a regional for 8+ years and you can't possibly see how he's frustrated? Easy to say from the left seat I suppose...Try raising a family and planning for the future being stuck like that. I left ExpressJet and it has been a night and day difference. No more waiting on hold for 2+ hours to contact crew scheduling, no more extensions, no more being stranded without a hotel at 2am, no more paying for a taxi because the transportation no-shows, no more pay discrepancies, etc. That stuff shouldn't be a normal part of the job.

 

[wheelsup]

Wow. The guy has been an FO at a regional for 8+ years and you can't possibly see how he's frustrated? Easy to say from the left seat I suppose...Try raising a family and planning for the future being stuck like that. I left ExpressJet and it has been a night and day difference. No more waiting on hold for 2+ hours to contact crew scheduling, no more extensions, no more being stranded without a hotel at 2am, no more paying for a taxi because the transportation no-shows, no more pay discrepancies, etc. That stuff shouldn't be a normal part of the job.

Yeah, it's basically the same job except

It pays way better
Way better retirement contributions
Better variety of flying and schedules
Much more stable career path
Better equipment
Better, more professional co-workers/employee groups
Better hotels and overnights
Most transportation is subcontracted so no relying on the hotel shuttle time schedules
Better non-rev privileges
Much, much more laid back training department (ie no "how much does the APU battery weigh" or "how many fan blades on N1" type of nitnoid questions)
Reserve is so good it goes senior

So yeah, other than those things, yep basically the same exact job, I don't understand how anyone wouldn't be content at a commuter.

 

[Blackhawk]

Wow. The guy has been an FO at a regional for 8+ years and you can't possibly see how he's frustrated? Easy to say from the left seat I suppose...Try raising a family and planning for the future being stuck like that. I left ExpressJet and it has been a night and day difference. No more waiting on hold for 2+ hours to contact crew scheduling, no more extensions, no more being stranded without a hotel at 2am, no more paying for a taxi because the transportation no-shows, no more pay discrepancies, etc. That stuff shouldn't be a normal part of the job.

1. Most of those issues occurred after the implementation of FAR 117 when just about every airline had issues as they tried to figure it out. In the past two years I have not been on hold at all for scheduling, though much of it is done on line now. Same with hotel issues and transportation.
2. Eight years as an FO. It happens. Some pilots were furloughed longer than that. Most of these guys are in the 30's and probably will be at a legacy in less than 5 years, giving them 30+ years where they can make good wages They will be fine.
Due to my seniority and the trips I can hold, most of the FO's I fly with are 6+ year FO have been here 6+ year, usually 8 years. While they would obviously like to move on and I do feel for them, I can think of only one DTW FO I've flown with who was bitter in any way.

 

[T-Gates]

2. Eight years as an FO. It happens. Some pilots were furloughed longer than that. Most of these guys are in the 30's and probably will be at a legacy in less than 5 years, giving them 30+ years where they can make good wages They will be fine.

Wow, when I read your posts I almost always come away thinking you're out of touch.

But this just takes the cake.

 

[Blackhawk]

Wow, when I read your posts I almost always come away thinking you're out of touch.

But this just takes the cake.

Why? Because I know pilots who sat on the panel for 15 years when they were told they would be a captain in 4 years? Because I knew people who bled Pan Am Blue watch it go down in flames (one literally wrote a book on Pan Am)? Because I know many who assumed they would be at a major in five years but are at a regional 25 years later? Pilots who hopped from ACA to Comair to another regional? Pilots who were furloughed for years? So a person was a regional FO for 8 years. It happens.
It can be a tough industry and I think many of those who are bitter came in with unrealistic expectations. I'm not sure what the disconnect is, but there seems to be an entitlement attitude, that they are owed a quick upgrade and a double breasted suit after five years. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.
I've seen bad luck events turn out to be the best thing, then I've seen the "lucky" ones get hosed. Heck, I saw guys in my new hire class here get on with DAL before me because of the airplane they selected. Unfortunately they were hired in August 2001. Fortunately, however, they were the first to be furloughed and flying jobs were still available.
I think I have always been up front and truthful with people who ask about this industry. It can be great. But timing is everything. You can let the events shape you and turn you into a bitter person, or you can roll with it. Personally, I try not to let the actions of others define who I am.
In the words of the famous pilot Buckaroo Banzai, "No matter where you go, there you are."

 

[derg]

I hope those 8 year FO's have their feelers out there.

There are a few airlines that give "PIC credit" for high time XJT FOs if they otherwise meet the other non-PIC quals.

 

[T-Gates]

Why? Because I know pilots who sat on the panel for 15 years when they were told they would be a captain in 4 years? Because I knew people who bled Pan Am Blue watch it go down in flames (one literally wrote a book on Pan Am)? Because I know many who assumed they would be at a major in five years but are at a regional 25 years later? Pilots who hopped from ACA to Comair to another regional? Pilots who were furloughed for years? So a person was a regional FO for 8 years. It happens.

Listen. I understand the industry has it's ups and downs. I've worked with Pan Am guys, Eastern guys, Braniff guys, ATA guys, TWA guys, Comair guys, the lot. There were plenty of them who were bitter, and plenty that were of the "Meh, it happens" crowd.

Having not walked a mile in their shoes, I sure as hell wouldn't disparage any of them for being bitter.

It can be a tough industry and I think many of those who are bitter came in with unrealistic expectations. I'm not sure what the disconnect is, but there seems to be an entitlement attitude, that they are owed a quick upgrade and a double breasted suit after five years. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.

And there it is. "Entitlement".

That is the most oft given excuse given by those of a previous generation to explain the younger generation. Is there some entitlement attitude out there? Absolutely. I've seen it. But can't you understand why there is some malcontent when you have people that were told that they have found the road to their goal, only to have it snatched away for a multitude of different reasons? That's a tough pill to swallow, even if those before you have likely swallowed the same pill in the past.

I've seen bad luck events turn out to be the best thing, then I've seen the "lucky" ones get hosed. Heck, I saw guys in my new hire class here get on with DAL before me because of the airplane they selected. Unfortunately they were hired in August 2001. Fortunately, however, they were the first to be furloughed and flying jobs were still available.
I think I have always been up front and truthful with people who ask about this industry. It can be great. But timing is everything. You can let the events shape you and turn you into a bitter person, or you can roll with it. Personally, I try not to let the actions of others define who I am.
In the words of the famous pilot Buckaroo Banzai, "No matter where you go, there you are."

I'll agree with you there. Timing is everything. But for every person who gets on at the beginning of the wave, there is someone who gets on at the end. And to tell someone who got on at the end that they should just be happy that they are there, is nothing more than condescension at it's highest level.

Look, I don't enjoy flying with someone who is negative 100% of the time as much as the next guy. But if someone who has truly gotten a screw job, and is having a bad day, I'll happily listen, offer advice if I can, and buy the first beverage at the overnight to hydrate the sorrow. Not tell them that they should be happy to have a job while I'm earning nearly twice their salary and sitting in the seat they're yearning to fly from.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

1. Most of those issues occurred after the implementation of FAR 117 when just about every airline had issues as they tried to figure it out. In the past two years I have not been on hold at all for scheduling, though much of it is done on line now. Same with hotel issues and transportation.

I found the exact opposite.

It was my experience that when something went right when dealing with A-Tech it was actually a surprise. If anything I think 117 helped as it forced them to have some semblance of a plan.