AirTran/SWA Seniority Integration Deal

MikeD said:
Allow me a hypothetical: Would it be tinfoil hat-ish to believe that this second offer was going to be worse than the first in retaliation for the first one being turned down?
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As always, a question with great insight. I would hypothetically answer yes.

And in turn, if this one is voted down, would all subsequent offers be worse than the previous in an effort to force acceptance at some point?
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Again, a very great angle for a question. Maybe? Seniority integrations are always cantankerous. However, WN has always prided itself on being different. Witness my preceding post. Giving offers where a majority of a pilot group was, at first, in a position to be mostly furloughed; or offers where most captains are downgraded and the rest of the pilots are in position to be furloughed as announced plans has the "odd duck" fleet to be parked while taking away a contract retirement benefit and leaving them on an inferior payscale really don't show fellow employees Respect. It is at best, average airline management tactics.

Pretty pathetic.
 
Rocketman99 said:
OK, SWA has more planes, great. Oh and the fact their pilot group voted overwhelmingly to strike shows a pilot group with the balls to do what it takes to get it done and/or a management group that doesn't quite know how to get it done. Is the SWA pilot group that unified? Who knows, they've had the luxury of a management group that has known how to get the job done almost from day 1, kudos.

However, how many planes you have and how you management/employee relations don't factor here. At the end of the day, you're both still LCCs flying CONUS point to point routes using the same/similar aircraft (they have 737s too). There is no argument.
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There's the whole "consistently profitable thing" which no other airline has. That's kind of a biggie. So, size goes to SWA. Consistently profitable also goes to SWA. Perhaps their consistent profitability has led them to never have had to be in a position to have pilots unify for a strike vote?
 
Polar742 said:
However, WN has always prided itself on being different. Witness my preceding post. Giving offers where a majority of a pilot group was, at first, in a position to be mostly furloughed; or offers where most captains are downgraded and the rest of the pilots are in position to be furloughed as announced plans has the "odd duck" fleet to be parked while taking away a contract retirement benefit and leaving them on an inferior payscale really don't show fellow employees Respect. It is at best, average airline management tactics.

Pretty pathetic.
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LOL...not laughing at you Martin, just the situation. How many threads am I lambasted because I tell it like it is. One of those threads caused ATN to "ignore" me. My entire premise was that, to an employer, you are AT MOST a set of numbers - an employee number, and a salary number. That's it. Like any commodity (I used the motor oil example). Anyway...these statements caused much gnashing of teeth and this hippy crap about companies "that care about their employees" and "are like a family" and "value their people" and how I was an evil bastard for telling people "This is how it is. This is how you're viewed. Act accordingly. Even SWA does this".

Anyway, now that I've been proven correct, people may bask in the glow of my awesomeness - starting with ATN and Bumblebee.

For the rest - I don't care where you are at, or how good you think you are treated, or how "the company is like a family". Keep this in mind, you're a number - that's it. A mere commodity. If this example doesn't teach you that lesson (which I was trying to impart but everyone got all emotional) - nothing will.

As to Mike's statement - of course this deal was worse on purpose. And it will continue to be so. And the next time there is a dispute with the company, the well-paid pilots will be thinking "Wow...the ATN guys stood up and got their ass smacked...we better go along with this because the counter-offer will be worse".

So...USAPA replaces ALPA. TWA guys cream ALPA in a lawsuit. SWAPA is going to put ALPA in short-pants on this deal. My question - how relevant is ALPA anymore?
 
OK, to correct my own quote: "The WN PR machine told a very convincing and compelling story of it's culture that flew in the face of facts....."

I don't disagree with your premise of us worker-bees being a set of numbers on a spread sheet. There's a value we bring to the company through our work, and an expenditure of that revenue for our services.
 
Polar742 said:
OK, to correct my own quote: "The WN PR machine told a very convincing and compelling story of it's culture that flew in the face of facts....."

I don't disagree with your premise of us worker-bees being a set of numbers on a spread sheet. There's a value we bring to the company through our work, and an expenditure of that revenue for our services.
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The "good" that will come out of SWA grinding up the ATN pilots in a way that would make Lorenzo proud is that never again will people look to a place as "different" or "special". That is actually good. Take the BS and emotion out of the picture and focus on the tangible.
 
Todd,

So the negotiation for this "strong" scope that AirTran has.... all for naught? I can't imagine that strong scope is much of a seller when it has to be fought from the street.
 
Cencal, Imma call you tomorrow man! :) Just busy around the home office, bro!
 
Boo737 said:
Oh, so now you're saying that since AT guys are bringing their airplanes, they should get to keep their seats? LOL!! Well SWA bought those aircraft in the purchase of AT for 3.2 Billion, so their not AT's airplane anymore. So how about this? AT Capt can fly their airplanes they brought with them, then they can fly in the right seat on the remaining 500 airplanes SWA has. That's your arguement is it not? As for taking the assets, don't think for minute that is not being thought out. We just started service in ATL and are starting to downsize AT there as we speak. Don't think SWA management is not positioning themselves for any possible scernio. And there would be no fireworks because it's perfectly legal for them to do just that. "G" holding company could just go out of business one day. Poof it's all gone.
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We have plans to start service into ATL, but it has not commenced yet.
 
ChasenSFO said:
The only other mergers/take overs I know of Southwest going through were the Morris Air merger and then the purchase/take over of TranStar(formerly known as Muse Air) and ATA(at least I thought they had purchased most of ATA). I know the latter two were operated as separate companies then dismantled, but when they merged with Morris, how did they integrate those lists?
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ATA was a codeshare, but in the end, WN bought some of their assets (gates, slots, exct)
 
And please, please don't judge the company itself based off a few "passionate" individuals who post on these forums. There's a reason there's not a lot of WN guys on these forums.

On that note, this whole buyout is really getting nasty.

Sorry to you FL guys who are getting the shaft. I hope for those who lose their seat on the 73 that the pay increase will at least be of some compensation.
 
At this point, sounds like the ATN guys have no choice but to tell SWA to fornicate themselves in a particularly unpleasant manner. The first "offer" was bad enough, this one is utterly disgusting.
 
Rocketman99 said:
At this point, sounds like the ATN guys have no choice but to tell SWA to fornicate themselves in a particularly unpleasant manner. The first "offer" was bad enough, this one is utterly disgusting.
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Knowing WN's past, I don't expect to see any better. Personally I think DoH should be used with captain seat locks for ATN. If they don't want to sit reserve they could always downgrade and still get a pay raise.
 
Rocketman99 said:
At this point, sounds like the ATN guys have no choice but to tell SWA to fornicate themselves in a particularly unpleasant manner. The first "offer" was bad enough, this one is utterly disgusting.
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Did anyone honestly think it would be better? Why would they anger the majority of their pilot group to make the ATN guys happy? In the end all they wanted was the routes and lack of competition in certain markets. Do you think the clause written into the ATN pilots contract even gave them a second thought? I doubt it, highly.

You are kidding yourself if you dont think they wont fire the entire group and fight it in court. Better to fight a battle in court out of the public eye then to have angry pilots messing up their image with the flying public. They know they have a great PR machine and aside from a few bumps any long drawn out battle will be fought out of the public spectrum. The masses dont care about ATN pilots or pilots in general, they want to get from A to B as cheaply as possible and SWA does it.

They have what they want already.
 
Matt13C said:
Did anyone honestly think it would be better? Why would they anger the majority of their pilot group to make the ATN guys happy? In the end all they wanted was the routes and lack of competition in certain markets. Do you think the clause written into the ATN pilots contract even gave them a second thought? I doubt it, highly.
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Why? Because that's how it works in modern day integrations. The days of buy and staple are long over.
 
Rocketman99 said:
Why? Because that's how it works in modern day integrations. The days of buy and staple are long over.
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Because they have their existing pilots to keep happy, much of their success is due to their culture. Is it better to have 100 unhappy ATN pilots or 1000 unhappy SWA pilots?

ATN pilots already have a bad taste in their mouth, a few concessions on SWA's part wont completely get rid of that, but those concessions will upset more SWA pilots.

The initial offer was the benchmark, SWA pilots would want less, ATN pilots would want more, who do you think is going to win that fight? The group of 6,000 or the group of 1800?
 
Matt13C said:
Did anyone honestly think it would be better? Why would they anger the majority of their pilot group to make the ATN guys happy? In the end all they wanted was the routes and lack of competition in certain markets. Do you think the clause written into the ATN pilots contract even gave them a second thought? I doubt it, highly.

You are kidding yourself if you dont think they wont fire the entire group and fight it in court. Better to fight a battle in court out of the public eye then to have angry pilots messing up their image with the flying public. They know they have a great PR machine and aside from a few bumps any long drawn out battle will be fought out of the public spectrum. The masses dont care about ATN pilots or pilots in general, they want to get from A to B as cheaply as possible and SWA does it.

They have what they want already.
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I have to agree that unfortunately that is exactly what will probably happen...they wanted AirTran for ATL..thats all....and their won't be a "buy and staple" it will be a "buy and fire" like ATA.....it stinks for the Airtran guys and I wish them the best of luck.
 
Rocketman99 said:
Why? Because that's how it works in modern day integrations. The days of buy and staple are long over.
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Maybe not. I feel bad for the airtran guys buy kinda applaud the southwest management. They are getting what they want and not backing down. I don't think they ever really wanted the pilots from airtran in the first place. Just the planes and routes. I wouldn't be surprised if airtran pilots all end up getting the boot even if it means a long court battle for southwest
 
I don't applaud southwest management at all in that regard. If they wanted the planes and routes they should have bought them on their own. You buy someone else's used toys, you're stuck with all that brings, which in this case is the pilot group.
 
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