AirTran/SWA Seniority Integration Deal

pullup said:
3, just not in the airline business. Actually 2 mergers and one purchase. Before you say they're different, they're not. Contracts exist everywhere and can be broken. I'm not saying this is right, it's just life. Southwest gave them a fair contract and they thumbed their noses at them. Inevitably they will receive a far less stellar deal.
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You should read up on the RLA and stuff. It really does make a difference.

AirTran was profitable and a growing business. It's not like WN kept them from going under.
 
Cptnchia said:
The thing is, everyone here is concentrating on the pilot deal, but there are many more moving parts, such as above/below wing and MX. WN management may want to dump the pilots, but without the other AAI employees pulling in the same direction, they won't be able to provide the same level of service. One of two things will happen. Either the other groups will run scared and toe the line, or they will get mad at the treatment of the AAI pilots, and pull in the other direction.

Whatever the final outcome, I think that SWA is in for a rocky road for the next few years. Putting a SWA shirt on an ATL ramper doesn't gaurantee the same level of service that you are gonna get at Love Field.
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haha...that last sentence speaks volumes.

There are some upstanding Atlanta ramp personnel, but largely you're not gonna get snappy operational service...
 
cencal83406 said:
So the negotiation for this "strong" scope that AirTran has.... all for naught? I can't imagine that strong scope is much of a seller when it has to be fought from the street.
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Scope is only worthwhile if you are willing to fight to enforce it. If you're just going to roll over, then yeah, it's not worth the paper that it's written on.

pullup said:
Lol, should have taken the good, first offer.
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The first offer was horrible, not "good." This offer is worse for some, a little bit better for some. For me, this one is actually better. Yeah, I don't get the pay increase, but because of that, only the people who live in Atlanta and don't care about the pay raise will bid 717 FO, so I'll probably end up being very senior in the 717 until the airplane disappears years down the road. I just feel horrible for the captains losing their seats. It's just not right.
 
Fair and equitable. It's not just a good idea, it's the ​law.

Source

A new federal law, Public Law 110-161 enacted in December 2007, directs that two of the Allegheny-Mohawk labor protective provisions must be followed when air carriers merge. The
law imposes sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk order. Section 3 specifies that:
“insofar as the merger affects the seniority rights of the carriers’ employees, provisions
shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner,
including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the
carriers and representatives of the employees affected. In the event of failure to agree, the dispute may be submitted by either party for adjustment in accordance with section
13.”
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For other unionized employees who are combining with nonunion employees or employees of
another union, the provisions of their collective bargaining agreement related to integration or
successor clauses apply only if they do not contradict the “fair and equitable” standard and
arbitration procedures of Allegheny-Mohawk. The role airline management would have in
integration discussions under these circumstances is unclear.
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Note: All emphasis added.
 
jtrain609 said:
Hopefully what they think doesn't matter, and what a third party arbitrator thinks is what matters.
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It's going out to a vote not an arbitrator. Why are most of you on this forum so against SWA and SWAPA on this issue? They are just doing what anyone would do, looking out for their best interest.
 
CzechAirman said:
It's going out to a vote not an arbitrator. Why are most of you on this forum so against SWA and SWAPA on this issue? They are just doing what anyone would do, looking out for their best interest.
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No, that's not what "anyone" would do. When AirTran was trying to buy Midwest, our pilots were in favor of a relative seniority integration for the Midwest pilots. They were a much smaller carrier in real financial trouble, so we easily could have tried to screw them over by claiming that they wouldn't have jobs if not for a merger, but I didn't hear a single AirTran pilot advocating such a thing. We just wanted what was reasonable and fair. And even though we're getting screwed over on this deal, and a fair integration for another pilot group in a future merger would just serve to push me further down the list and harm my career expectations even more, I'll never advocate to do this to another pilot group after I'm a Southwest pilot. It's just not right.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
after I'm a Southwest pilot. It's just not right.
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The bigger question is how long will you be a WN pilot? I mean with all the downgrades from the 737 (I'm WAGGING 450) and then the displacements down-to, then I'm guessing off of the 717 would be about 450. Then the 717 being parked, will an equal number of 737s show up for a 1:1 replacement?
 
Polar742 said:
The bigger question is how long will you be a WN pilot? I mean with all the downgrades from the 737 (I'm WAGGING 450) and then the displacements down-to, then I'm guessing off of the 717 would be about 450. Then the 717 being parked, will an equal number of 737s show up for a 1:1 replacement?
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There are no plans to park any airplanes. Over 100 planes are still on order, with deliveries scheduled consistently year after year for the foreseeable future. We also expect an order to be announced for some sort of larger airplane in the next few years. The total number of planes will either stay the same, or grow (more likely). I'm not worried about a furlough unless there is some sort of 9/11 style event.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
There are no plans to park any airplanes. Over 100 planes are still on order, with deliveries scheduled consistently year after year for the foreseeable future. We also expect an order to be announced for some sort of larger airplane in the next few years. The total number of planes will either stay the same, or grow (more likely). I'm not worried about a furlough unless there is some sort of 9/11 style event.
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Good to hear. When an airline talks about parking airframes and the "losing" group gets a staple proposed, it's always nerve wracking. At least you get to keep your 717 rate.....
 
ATN_Pilot said:
No, that's not what "anyone" would do. When AirTran was trying to buy Midwest, our pilots were in favor of a relative seniority integration for the Midwest pilots. They were a much smaller carrier in real financial trouble, so we easily could have tried to screw them over by claiming that they wouldn't have jobs if not for a merger, but I didn't hear a single AirTran pilot advocating such a thing. We just wanted what was reasonable and fair. And even though we're getting screwed over on this deal, and a fair integration for another pilot group in a future merger would just serve to push me further down the list and harm my career expectations even more, I'll never advocate to do this to another pilot group after I'm a Southwest pilot. It's just not right.
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Business is War. Take no prisoners. I know that's not PC on this forum to say, but it's how I feel. If I was a Southwest pilot, I'd be upset if SWAPA and the company were not trying the get the best deal for Southwest pilots. Life is not fair and business is certainly not fair.
 
CzechAirman said:
Business is War. Take no prisoners. I know that's not PC on this forum to say, but it's how I feel. If I was a Southwest pilot, I'd be upset if SWAPA and the company were not trying the get the best deal for Southwest pilots. Life is not fair and business is certainly not fair.
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Yes, I guess it's a hassle sometimes to actually have a conscience. :rolleyes:
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yes, I guess it's a hassle sometimes to actually have a conscience. :rolleyes:
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Some people just don't know or care to do the right thing.

My personal feeling is that if the AAI guys get screwed over by SWA, then SWAPA and their membership bear some culpability and responsibility for it. At a least, they should have told management to play fair and not stood idly by while the assault took place.
 
Cptnchia said:
Some people just don't know or care to do the right thing.

My personal feeling is that if the AAI guys get screwed over by SWA, then SWAPA and their membership bear some culpability and responsibility for it. At a least, they should have told management to play fair and not stood idly by while the assault took place.
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I think it's easy for everyone to say southwest needs to put a better deal out there when your not in their shoes with something to loose. Southwest pilots have nothing to gain by this integration and everything to loose. If I was a southwest guy and my upgrade time went up one day because of this deal I would be furious and demand union heads. Yes I understand now that airline management is handicapped by some in my opinion stupid laws. I have been through two acquisitions with my company. I wished the best for the employees of the companies we bought but at the same time I was ready to push to have them thrown on the street before any of my employees got affected by it. In one case we didn't have to lay anyone off but the other one we laid off every employee of the company we bought. We only wanted the assets in the second case not the employees. Did I feel bad sure. But I had to protect my employees not the other companies employees
 
ATN_Pilot said:
No, that's not what "anyone" would do. When AirTran was trying to buy Midwest, our pilots were in favor of a relative seniority integration for the Midwest pilots. They were a much smaller carrier in real financial trouble, so we easily could have tried to screw them over by claiming that they wouldn't have jobs if not for a merger, but I didn't hear a single AirTran pilot advocating such a thing. We just wanted what was reasonable and fair. And even though we're getting screwed over on this deal, and a fair integration for another pilot group in a future merger would just serve to push me further down the list and harm my career expectations even more, I'll never advocate to do this to another pilot group after I'm a Southwest pilot. It's just not right.
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So you thinks it's fair for a AT pilot hired in 2005 who upgraded at AT to be above a pilot at SWA who was hired in 2000 and is still in the right seat? You're saying the SWA guys 5 years being on the property before you count for nothing? As for the Midwest deal, then why did'nt you buy Midwest? And you would have no problem with a guy who was hired at Midwest who was 5 years junior to you going above you in pay, seniority, and seat because of the goodness in your heart? I doubt that very seriously.
 
Boo737 said:
So you thinks it's fair for a AT pilot hired in 2005 who upgraded at AT to be above a pilot at SWA who was hired in 2000 and is still in the right seat?
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Yes. Date of hire is irrelevant once you establish position on your respective seniority list. I'm assuming hypothetical 2000 hire at Southwest is an F/O because he can't hold captain at his respective company. If that is the case, he made the choice to go to a carrier that had slower upgrade. Disclosure- I don't work at either airline, but have been through a seniority integration.
 
Boo737 said:
So you thinks it's fair for a AT pilot hired in 2005 who upgraded at AT to be above a pilot at SWA who was hired in 2000 and is still in the right seat?
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Maybe, maybe not. What I can say for sure is that it's wrong for any captain to be kicked out of his seat so a pilot from the other airline can take it.

And you would have no problem with a guy who was hired at Midwest who was 5 years junior to you going above you in pay, seniority, and seat because of the goodness in your heart? I doubt that very seriously.
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How can someone be "5 years junior to me" at another airline? Longevity and seniority are not the same thing. You guys keep confusing the two.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Maybe, maybe not. What I can say for sure is that it's wrong for any captain to be kicked out of his seat so a pilot from the other airline can take it.



How can someone be "5 years junior to me" at another airline? Longevity and seniority are not the same thing. You guys keep confusing the two.
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Well, you guys turned that down did you not with SL9? You got to keep your seats and and get the money. But your union argued that seniority is everything. So you're saying seniority/longevity go hand in hand by that argument. SWA bought AT so you are not another airline you are merged airline. You cannot have it both ways, if you think SWA pilots are going to lay down and welcome AT pilots with open arms after they turned down the deal of lifetime and then come after their seniority too, well I'm hear to tell you guys, you had better pack and lunch and bring a latern, because it's going to be a long year.
 
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