AirTran/SWA Seniority Integration Deal

Rocketman99 said:
I don't applaud southwest management at all in that regard. If they wanted the planes and routes they should have bought them on their own. You buy someone else's used toys, you're stuck with all that brings, which in this case is the pilot group.
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Is it really management vs ALPA, or does SWAPA have some say in this? I would guess they do.

I don't applaud tactics that put pilot groups at odds for the benefit of the company, although I dont see how that could be avoided in this situation, only minimized. I especially don't applaud potentially putting a group on the street. I just don't know how people didn't see this coming.
 
MikeD said:
Allow me a hypothetical: Would it be tinfoil hat-ish to believe that this second offer was going to be worse than the first in retaliation for the first one being turned down? And in turn, if this one is voted down, would all subsequent offers be worse than the previous in an effort to force acceptance at some point?
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I thought that once the ATM MEC turned down the first offer, they were asking for a fight. Disregarding the pay increase that the first offer was a mistake IMHO. I know that you guys say pay is irrealevant and seniority is everything, but obviously SWAPA doesn't feel that way. And an arbitrater would probably agree with them.

I think the ATN pilots don't have nearly as much leverage as they believed.


Looking at it from the other point of view, SWA is going to take care of the SWA employees first, and "try" to bring in ATN employees as much as possible. If it looks like the are going to be more trouble than they are worth, they will get dumped.

I honestly believe that SWA management has/had the best of intentions, but good intentions do not always equal harmony.
 
Lol, should have taken the good, first offer. Face it, you're not getting a golden SLI, the more you fight the tighter the noose becomes.
 
Rocketman99 said:
I don't applaud southwest management at all in that regard. If they wanted the planes and routes they should have bought them on their own. You buy someone else's used toys, you're stuck with all that brings, which in this case is the pilot group.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't SWA do exactly that? They bought the planes and routes. Don't forget that.
 
Rocketman99 said:
They bought SOMEONE ELSE'S planes and routes and as such everything that comes with it.
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I'm not familiar with how this works with the airlines but if my company bought another company we could fire all their employees without asking and keep their goodies. That's the beauty of buying something. Is there something preventing SWA from doing this that is actually enforceable.
 
Inverted25 said:
I'm not familiar with how this works with the airlines but if my company bought another company we could fire all their employees without asking and keep their goodies. That's the beauty of buying something. Is there something preventing SWA from doing this that is actually enforceable.
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We can tell you don't know how this works at the airlines.

There are SEVERAL things that would prevent that from happening (hopefully) that are very enforceable. Go study Texas Air and see if anything strikes a bell.
 
Eagle421flyer said:
I have to agree that unfortunately that is exactly what will probably happen...they wanted AirTran for ATL..thats all....and their won't be a "buy and staple" it will be a "buy and fire" like ATA.....it stinks for the Airtran guys and I wish them the best of luck.
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Am I missing something? When did WN buy TZ?
 
DPApilot said:
Am I missing something? When did WN buy TZ?
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After the codeshare started, and the gate deal didn't go, WN was 25% into TZ(equity only). After awhile, they pulled their investment and ended the codeshare and TZ collapsed. Yes, Matlin-Patterson was at the helm, but talk to an ATA pilot about what happened when the codeshare ended....

Here's the wiki entry Pay close attention to the acquisitions and the codeshares...

Funny timing....
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Nah, I don't blame them. They don't really have a choice. The pilot group is basically being threatened with non-integration if we don't take it. We're voting with a gun held to our heads. Not letting the pilot group vote under those circumstances wouldn't make much sense. The choice is basically take the crappy deal and get integrated, or don't take the crappy deal and possibly lose our jobs while we fight it out in court to enforce our scope protections and McCaskill-Bond for who knows how many years. The MEC can't make that decision on their own without a pilot group vote.



Yeah, I will, but I'm not sure how many other people will. Voting with a gun held to your head isn't quite the same as just being able to vote your conscience.
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Obviously the reason is different, but it's similar to how the majors were forced, via either bankruptcy or threats of, to relax scope.
 
WacoFan said:
LOL...not laughing at you Martin, just the situation. How many threads am I lambasted because I tell it like it is. One of those threads caused ATN to "ignore" me. My entire premise was that, to an employer, you are AT MOST a set of numbers - an employee number, and a salary number. That's it. Like any commodity (I used the motor oil example). Anyway...these statements caused much gnashing of teeth and this hippy crap about companies "that care about their employees" and "are like a family" and "value their people" and how I was an evil bastard for telling people "This is how it is. This is how you're viewed. Act accordingly. Even SWA does this".

Anyway, now that I've been proven correct, people may bask in the glow of my awesomeness - starting with ATN and Bumblebee.

For the rest - I don't care where you are at, or how good you think you are treated, or how "the company is like a family". Keep this in mind, you're a number - that's it. A mere commodity. If this example doesn't teach you that lesson (which I was trying to impart but everyone got all emotional) - nothing will.

As to Mike's statement - of course this deal was worse on purpose. And it will continue to be so. And the next time there is a dispute with the company, the well-paid pilots will be thinking "Wow...the ATN guys stood up and got their ass smacked...we better go along with this because the counter-offer will be worse".

So...USAPA replaces ALPA. TWA guys cream ALPA in a lawsuit. SWAPA is going to put ALPA in short-pants on this deal. My question - how relevant is ALPA anymore?
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Answer- NOT!
 
Polar742 said:
How did that Challenge Air Cargo deal go down at your shop?
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If you are referring to the UPS PURCHASE of Challenge Air Cargo. UPS bought the route authority and customer base from Challenge. That is all they purchased. They never had intentions of purchasing the employees or assets of their air operation. What's your point behind the question?
 
CzechAirman said:
If you are referring to the UPS PURCHASE of Challenge Air Cargo. UPS bought the route authority and customer base from Challenge. That is all they purchased. They never had intentions of purchasing the employees or assets of their air operation. What's your point behind the question?
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To learn what happened.
 
Polar742 said:
We can tell you don't know how this works at the airlines.

There are SEVERAL things that would prevent that from happening (hopefully) that are very enforceable. Go study Texas Air and see if anything strikes a bell.
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I can tell you that the airline can do anything it wants, taking into account its pockets are deep enough.
 
Polar742 said:
How many mergers have you been through?
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3, just not in the airline business. Actually 2 mergers and one purchase. Before you say they're different, they're not. Contracts exist everywhere and can be broken. I'm not saying this is right, it's just life. Southwest gave them a fair contract and they thumbed their noses at them. Inevitably they will receive a far less stellar deal.
 
The thing is, everyone here is concentrating on the pilot deal, but there are many more moving parts, such as above/below wing and MX. WN management may want to dump the pilots, but without the other AAI employees pulling in the same direction, they won't be able to provide the same level of service. One of two things will happen. Either the other groups will run scared and toe the line, or they will get mad at the treatment of the AAI pilots, and pull in the other direction.

Whatever the final outcome, I think that SWA is in for a rocky road for the next few years. Putting a SWA shirt on an ATL ramper doesn't gaurantee the same level of service that you are gonna get at Love Field.
 
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