House, Senate pass 1500 rule, Rest rules, and more

I used to have 6 students fly a day, those 8 stalls would be personally demonstrated. If you want to count the ones you observe too it would be more, but for some reason you think that is worthless when in fact I think it is more valuable than doing it yourself sometimes... You see how the errors occur, and the chain reaction of events. But I didn't include those just because you would have whined about it.

Again you might do them once or twice but after that the students are doing them.

I highly doubt you were demonstrating stalls to each of your students every day of their training.

The argument made for actually doing the stalls is "muscle memory". My point is you don't "log" much muscle memory as a CFI if you are doing it right.

And again, European airlines aren't falling out of the skies because "low time" pilots are stalling, are they? And their system isn't 1) learn to fly 2) teach 3) go to airline.

ETA:

Getting further off topic. The simple fact remains that this regulation - had it been in effect - would not have prevented a Colgan 3407. Which is what spurred it's creation.

Irony? Or stupidity?


Much like the TSA this will just be a "feel good" law. Adding more and more legalese that airlines must overcome.
 
Do these rules apply to military guys that try to go to the airline world as well? Does the military issue an ATP to its pilot when they reach 1500 hours or will they need to take the checkride before applying to an airline? How would the "difficult operational conditions" apply to military guys? Im not familiar with all military ops but are there any military birds that send guys to the airlines that see little to no experience in difficult conditions such as icing that may be included? How will this affect military jet pilots like the F-16 that have only one engine? The bill requires a set amount of multi-time. Will F-16 guys be able to credit their time for multi-time?
 
The captain didn't when he first started working at a 121 carrier, Gulfstream. Neither did the FO. Maybe he would have done a few more stalls with students if he didn't buy his way in at 250hrs.

I'm just reading through this, so forgive me if this has been addressed. I think that's the point that hours aren't everything, regardless of how those hours are attained. If he spent ALL 250 hrs doing stalls he probably wouldn't have had the problem he did, or they did rather. It's about what you do in those hours that makes you qualified. I just don't think 1500 hrs means anything specifically. And just because you do a bunch of stalls with students doesn't mean you're all of a sudden immune to mistakes (the FO was an instructor). I think there needs to be more of a focus on duty time and rest requirements. Anyone can be subject to doing things out of character when they are tired or sick.
 
I think there needs to be more of a focus on duty time and rest requirements. Anyone can be subject to doing things out of character when they are tired or sick.

I can honestly say I have done some really, really dumb things when I've been tired and being tired was the sole reason for the "brainfarts".

You try and pound the coffee or cokes but it just doesn't do that much good.

I'm sure I've flown with people when tired and they've wondered if my IQ was about a 50. It's cause I've been tired.

However you live and learn, and you make sure you force yourself to go to sleep early, get the rest you need, and call out fatigued if you truly are "stupid" tired.
 
That is a good thing. At least you all will get better rest out of all of this. I hope things get better when this is all said and done.

Chances are that in 3.5 years you will have 1500 hours, or at least 1200 (so you can 135) so it probably won't effect you either.

I suspect that this change will increase the amount of "right seat" pay for play places like eagle jet but also increase the use of VFR 135 (500tt) on certain runs that are IFR 3 days out of the year.
 
I still don't understand how this bill is going to Increase pay.

Btw, does anyone want to open a business with me selling dummies 1250 hours block time in my fleet of 150's (that I need help buying). This Is going to be an even bigger (dirty) face of aviation.

It's all about seniority!!!
 
Question...So say I get hired in a year for a regional, I don't need 1500 hours right? That doesn't go into effect for three years as far as I can tell. This might be a dumb question but the wording in the bill is confusing.
 
excellent

Somehow the pilots in every other part of the world have figured out how to not stall an airplane at low time before going to an airline w/ 200 hours.

Look at Qantas, who hires at extreme low time, then makes those folks second officers (essentially observers) for a good number of hours, then FO, then after many years as a CA.

Somehow, after doing the bare minimum of stall recovery training, with no teaching experience and "muscle memory", they manage to be the safest airline in the world, and yet they exclusively hire low time pilots.

:dunno:
 
I still don't understand how this bill is going to Increase pay.

It isn't, pay had nothing to do with the crash. The sad thing is this bill is not going to do anything to fix the problems that caused the crash. Bottom feeder companies will always cut corners.
 
I still don't understand how this bill is going to Increase pay.

Supply and demand. Decrease supply or increase demand and you will see increased wages. We have a chance at doing both with the upcoming rest rules. I don't expect pay rates to change overnight or for there to be a 200% bump all at once in the future. What I expect to see is a slow and steady increase in pay over time.
 
It will also lower the pay for all the other non-airline jobs out there since people will be forced into building time.
 
I still don't understand how this bill is going to Increase pay.

It will change pay upwards for a short term. Long term, I don't think it will have much of an effect on pay. Barring something radical changing with pay, it will likely return to present day levels once the supply curve catches up. It will eventually catch up, but it would be a wild guess to try to figure out when that is going to happen.

It will also lower the pay for all the other non-airline jobs out there since people will be forced into building time.

Not only is it going to lower the pay, its going to lower the quality of those services substantially. General aviation is the big looser in the grand scheme of things, specifically the non-career student.
 
Again you might do them once or twice but after that the students are doing them.

That's sometimes true, but it doesn't mean that as the CFI you're just sitting there staring out the window. You are still offering advice and corrections to the student, and you are also experiencing and observing what happens when stalls are not done (or recovered) correctly.

I highly doubt you were demonstrating stalls to each of your students every day of their training.
I might not have been demonstrating stalls every day, but since I had a good mix of private/instrument/comm students and was often logging 6+ hrs 6 days/wk, I was seeing them pretty darn often!

The argument made for actually doing the stalls is "muscle memory". My point is you don't "log" much muscle memory as a CFI if you are doing it right.
It's not just muscle memory. A stall recovery is not a pure physical reaction... It is a mental recognition of a deteriorating situation in flight with appropriate recovery. Once again, you don't seem to "get it" that a CFI is not just sitting their along for the ride... As the CFI, I was very much in the loop during these kinds of maneuvers and was "logging" all kinds of experience while my students worked through them.

And again, European airlines aren't falling out of the skies because "low time" pilots are stalling, are they? And their system isn't 1) learn to fly 2) teach 3) go to airline.
No, it's because the European airlines have a VERY selective process for choosing pilot candidates. It's nothing like we have here in the US, where any numbnuts can plonk down a loan at ATP, hoping to fulfill their dream to fly a jet in 90 days.
ETA:

Getting further off topic. The simple fact remains that this regulation - had it been in effect - would not have prevented a Colgan 3407. Which is what spurred it's creation.

Irony? Or stupidity?
I disagree. Had the CA been forced to develop his basic airmanship skills in the beginning, he wouldn't have completely butchered a VERY basic piloting skill that ended up killing a bunch of people.

Although I've never worked in the 121 environment, I've worked in 135 and have been flying a jet part 91 for almost two years now. We never come close to approaching the edge of the performance envelope except during very specific training events, which are few and far between compared to what I experienced as a CFI. Further, it's pretty well known that prior to the 3407 accident, most 121 airlines taught recovery at the shaker and had standards for minimum altitude loss. The procedure was NOT to demonstrate a full stall recovery and/or a recovery by unloading the wing, which is necessary during a full, deep stall. Those of us that have spent hundreds or even thousands of times doing this in our formative years understand the need to unload the wing in a full stall recovery, but somebody that went from zero to hero at some PFT operator and then went straight to Colgan may have missed that important little bit of info.
 
I can second the difference between the US and other countries when it comes to pilot selection and training. It is best to compare European and Asian countries to how our military selects and trains pilots because those two groups have more in common that the US civilian pilot training world. I know this because I work for a Japanese flight school.
 
Why doesn't Europe have airliners stalling out of the sky? They don't teach over there.

Because they fly Airbus products, impossible to stall... LOL but I've heard many horror stories from CA's over here in Europe about 200hr guys...

The rest requirements in Europe put ours to absolute shame which I think is the culprit in many accidents in the US fatal or non fatal, and I'd imagine this being the first incident where a person stalled the aircraft and crashed in the USA in any recent time, I could be wrong. But I think the fact is, nobody in Europe upgrades at the speed of which this guy did, not to mention he was basically Green his whole career with a checkered 121 training history, he slipped through the cracks, upgraded in an aircraft he had no real time in, and this bill should make it a little tougher for that to happen again, comparing Europe to USA is poor, show me an airline where guys upgrade with so little time in type over in Europe.
 
I can second the difference between the US and other countries when it comes to pilot selection and training. It is best to compare European and Asian countries to how our military selects and trains pilots because those two groups have more in common that the US civilian pilot training world. I know this because I work for a Japanese flight school.

Yep. I've got a former student (I taught him through his PPL) that is going through training at Singapore airlines. He's kept in touch throughout his training process over there, and it's pretty amazing how rigorous they are. He just completed his ATPL exams (which are no joke, unlike our ATP written), and is preparing to do a bunch of additional GA (SE and ME) flying in Australia in order to learn how to do things the Singapore Airlines way. After all of that, he will begin training for his A319 type, while jumpseating for about 6 months to see how things are done on the line. He also has his FAA SEL/MEL COMM and CFI.
 
I would agree that was a problem, but I don't think it was or is confine to Colgan. In many 121 PCs you are trained to pass the check, more emphasis is given to recovering from a stall with "minimum loss of altitude" by powering out of a stall. It's very choreographed maneuver, when this happens pitch up X degrees then when this happens add full power and hold Y degrees and you'll pass.


:yeahthat:


It doesn't really teach you anything about stalls. And this is the whole exposure the captain had to stalls was 121 check rides since he passed his CPL.


I disagree. It reinforces the idea that if you lose 1ft of altitude or let the nose drop, you fail.



On another point, I can't wait to see the new PTS for the ATP and what is required to satisfy some of those requirements.
 
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