House, Senate pass 1500 rule, Rest rules, and more

Overall looks like a move in the right direction, though the jury is out until the rest and fatigue rules are recommended and come in to play some time from now. That, and hopefully we haven't backdoored a multi-crew license.

On a related note: I'm glad I like my job, because that FO seat (which, admittedly, I wasn't that sure I wanted to sit in, anyway) just got a bit further away.
 
You probably do more stalls in your 1000 hours flight instructing than you do for the rest of your career combined, I don't think it's a good idea to skip it.
 
This bill does not go far enough. What about a minimum amount of experience as FO in an aircraft type before upgrade? Not only did Renslow have problems with the fundamentals, but if I recall correctly, upgraded to captain in a new aircraft that was a generation beyond what he was used to.

I'd also like to give a friendly reminder to those FOs in favor of this bill hired with <1500TT that CFI'ing to ATP minimums is not nearly as pleasurable of an experience as I'm sure you've had. Although I agree this is probably good for the industry, I'd urge some of the low time hires to go out and do 1000+ hours of dual given before telling other pilots about how easy it will be to build the time. Yes I have ATP mins.
 
How many hours did those Continental guys have that went off the runway, and burned the plane up? How many hours did the guy have that broke the tail off of an American Airlines Airbus? How many members here were hired under that 1500 hours, and are going to go back in teach until they have the 1500 piston time? While I am happy that the airlines will have to up their standards, I do not believe in a magic number for hours. Accidents will continue to happen, because people are good at defeating the system.
 
That wouldn't work, what if you want to add a new aircraft type that you don't already have in your fleet? Forced to hire street captains with time in type? Doesn't make any sense. I could see maybe an increase in IOE required if the aircrafts have vastly different operating characteristics, maybe.
 
tprops4me said:
How many hours did those Continental guys have that went off the runway, and burned the plane up? How many hours did the guy have that broke the tail off of an American Airlines Airbus? How many members here were hired under that 1500 hours, and are going to go back in teach until they have the 1500 piston time? While I am happy that the airlines will have to up their standards, I do not believe in a magic number for hours. Accidents will continue to happen, because people are good at defeating the system.
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What do you believe in then? What's an alternative? Because right now there is a magic number it's 250hours. Do you have some idea to get rid of this magic number?
 
wheelsup said:
As a CFI you demonstrate a few times and the student does the majority of the stalls. It's not like you are doing the stalls FOR the students...

Debunked
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An then you teach a hundred students how to do them repeating them over and over for a year or two.

Debunking debunked.


3407 was caused by a poorly trained crew with not much experiance and was exausted from flying all day.

This bill requires all three of those causes to be corrected.

Everybody gets hung up on the 1500 hr requirement because it will stop the next generation of zero to hero airline pilots. That is NOT a bad thing.
 
wheelsup said:
So you're telling me the CA doing stalls as a CFI would better prepare him for getting out of the stall that happened that night? Really?
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Absolutely YES. My understanding of the finer points of a stall did not fully develop until I taught them for a few hundred hours and got to observe what my students did and how the airplane responded. Another key lesson was when I learned advanced stall awareness and spin recovery during my CFI training. Flying straight and level at a 121 carrier for 2000 hours does not better prepare you to recover from a stall.
 
amd87 said:
, I'd urge some of the low time hires to go out and do 1000+ hours of dual given before telling other pilots about how easy it will be to build the time.
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That's the point.

It shouldn't be easy. It should be damn hard to EARN your seat in the cockpit.


I CFI'd until I had 1200 hours, and flew freight for some more until I meet ATP mins. That was the way it was always done for the civilian route, and now it will be again.
 
How many stalls does an airline pilot do a year? If you figure maybe 5 per check ride, that is 10 a year for a captain. It wouldn't be uncommon for a busy instructor to do that many a day, depending on the type and phase of student he or she is teaching. An active CFI, after a while it is something that you have ingrained into your brain for the rest of your life. I think that losing this type of experience doesn't better prepare you. But that is just my humble opinion.
 
tprops4me said:
How many hours did those Continental guys have that went off the runway, and burned the plane up? How many hours did the guy have that broke the tail off of an American Airlines Airbus? How many members here were hired under that 1500 hours, and are going to go back in teach until they have the 1500 piston time? While I am happy that the airlines will have to up their standards, I do not believe in a magic number for hours. Accidents will continue to happen, because people are good at defeating the system.
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Says the PPL...are you just dreading having to become a CFI to get to 1500 hours?

I can tell you from experience, that being a CFI teaches you more about flying than you can even imagine.

I started instructing at 293 hours and I had 1900+ hours when I became an FO at Horizon. In those nearly 1700 hours, I learned how to not only watch someone else make a mistake but also how far to let them go before it jeopardized safety. You also learn how to work as another "crew member", meaning that you learn how to talk to someone and make suggestions when you see something they might not.

The first 100 hours of being a CFI, you learn more than your students...it's a new perspective and it's pretty much invaluable.

Having to get an 1500 hours/ATP in order to be an Airline Pilot, regardless of which seat you're in, is a step in the right direction. I'm happy to see that Rest and Fatigue requirements placed into this bill.

Good job Firebird!!!
 
I posted this in APC... I don't see where it states that prospective 121 pilots will need an ATP or 1500. I see the 1500 hour requirement under subsection (b)(1) and an ATP requirement for all current 121 pilots within 3 years. Maybe I'm missing something here...

H.R.5900

Airline Safety and Federal Aviation Administration Extension Act of 2010 (Introduced in House - IH)

SEC. 216. FLIGHT CREWMEMBER SCREENING AND QUALIFICATIONS.

(a) Requirements-

(1) RULEMAKING PROCEEDING- The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall conduct a rulemaking proceeding to require part 121 air carriers to develop and implement means and methods for ensuring that flight crewmembers have proper qualifications and experience.

(2) MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS-

(A) PROSPECTIVE FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS- Rules issued under paragraph (1) shall ensure that prospective flight crewmembers undergo comprehensive preemployment screening, including an assessment of the skills, aptitudes, airmanship, and suitability of each applicant for a position as a flight crewmember in terms of functioning effectively in the air carrier's operational environment.

(B) ALL FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS- Rules issued under paragraph (1) shall ensure that, after the date that is 3 years after the date of enactment of this Act, all flight crewmembers--
(i) have obtained an airline transport pilot certificate under part 61 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations; and
(ii) have appropriate multi-engine aircraft flight experience, as determined by the Administrator.
(b) Deadlines- The Administrator shall issue--
(1) not later than 180 days after the date of enactment of this Act, a notice of proposed rulemaking under subsection (a); and
(2) not later than 24 months after such date of enactment, a final rule under subsection (a).

(c) Default- The requirement that each flight crewmember for a part 121 air carrier hold an airline transport pilot certificate under part 61 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, shall begin to apply on the date that is 3 years after the date of enactment of this Act even if the Administrator fails to meet a deadline established under this section.

SEC. 217. AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT CERTIFICATION.

(a) Rulemaking Proceeding- The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall conduct a rulemaking proceeding to amend part 61 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, to modify requirements for the issuance of an airline transport pilot certificate.

(b) Minimum Requirements- To be qualified to receive an airline transport pilot certificate pursuant to subsection (a), an individual shall--
(1) have sufficient flight hours, as determined by the Administrator, to enable a pilot to function effectively in an air carrier operational environment; and
(2) have received flight training, academic training, or operational experience that will prepare a pilot, at a minimum, to--
(A) function effectively in a multipilot environment;
(B) function effectively in adverse weather conditions, including icing conditions;
(C) function effectively during high altitude operations;
(D) adhere to the highest professional standards; and
(E) function effectively in an air carrier operational environment.

(c) Flight Hours-
(1) NUMBERS OF FLIGHT HOURS- The total flight hours required by the Administrator under subsection (b)(1) shall be at least 1,500 flight hours.
(2) FLIGHT HOURS IN DIFFICULT OPERATIONAL CONDITIONS- The total flight hours required by the Administrator under subsection (b)(1) shall include sufficient flight hours, as determined by the Administrator, in difficult operational conditions that may be encountered by an air carrier to enable a pilot to operate safely in such conditions.

(d) Credit Toward Flight Hours- The Administrator may allow specific academic training courses, beyond those required under subsection (b)(2), to be credited toward the total flight hours required under subsection (c). The Administrator may allow such credit based on a determination by the Administrator that allowing a pilot to take specific academic training courses will enhance safety more than requiring the pilot to fully comply with the flight hours requirement.

(e) Recommendations of Expert Panel- In conducting the rulemaking proceeding under this section, the Administrator shall review and consider the assessment and recommendations of the expert panel to review part 121 and part 135 training hours established by section 209(b) of this Act.

(f) Deadline- Not later than 36 months after the date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator shall issue a final rule under subsection (a).

Source - http://thomas.loc.gov/
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
How many stalls does an airline pilot do a year? If you figure maybe 5 per check ride, that is 10 a year for a captain. It wouldn't be uncommon for a busy instructor to do that many a day, depending on the type and phase of student he or she is teaching. An active CFI, after a while it is something that you have ingrained into your brain for the rest of your life. I think that losing this type of experience doesn't better prepare you. But that is just my humble opinion.
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But you're not doing them, the students are.

His argument is that it takes several thousand times of doing something to ingrain it in your "muscle memory".
 
I used to have 6 students fly a day, those 8 stalls would be personally demonstrated. If you want to count the ones you observe too it would be more, but for some reason you think that is worthless when in fact I think it is more valuable than doing it yourself sometimes... You see how the errors occur, and the chain reaction of events. But I didn't include those just because you would have whined about it.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
What do you believe in then? What's an alternative? Because right now there is a magic number it's 250hours. Do you have some idea to get rid of this magic number?
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It does not matter if the pilot has 250 or 2500. I would like to know how many pilots hired in under 1500 have had accidents versus those with over 1500.
You ask what I would suggest? It lies with the training department of the airlines. A stricter standard for getting into the plane. A higher washout rate. A sim instructor that has the ability to say that this person does not have it, and is allowed to act on it accordingly. Maybe more frequent recurrent training. You are reading this as I have a better plan. I don't. What I am saying is that people hired with more than 1500 hours in a plane have crashed in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. Many have crashed in the past. Many more than 200 hour wonders.
 
Wont furloughed guys that dont have an ATP get fired if they dont have an ATP in 3 years, assuming they are still furloughed? The bill says all 121 pilots must have an ATP in 3 years. Unless furloughed guys are recalled and get enough time for the ATP, I think many could lose their job.

Second, this bill is only hurts the mom and pop FBO. I bet you all anything that all the flight academies will do what Ari Ben Aviator did and become a certified flight college. The ERAU and UND students will likely be hired with 250. Nowhere in the bill does it state a maximum of what the students can credit. When times get hard and there is a need for 250 hour pilots, you can bet the FAA administrator will lower the minimums to 250 hours flight time for the Universities and academies that certify themselves as a university. The bill doesnt specify how much time in classroom can be substituted. In theory, it can be up to 1250 hours.
 
Another well intentioned good idea that will be perverted in to a government mandated market manipulation (viz. Puppymills).

I'll march in the streets for it if the puppymill exemption is removed. Till then: no go.
 
Gajre539 said:
I posted this in APC... I don't see where it states that prospective 121 pilots will need an ATP or 1500. I see the 1500 hour requirement under subsection (b)(1) and an ATP requirement for all current 121 pilots within 3 years. Maybe I'm missing something here...

(A) PROSPECTIVE FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS- Rules issued under paragraph (1) shall ensure that prospective flight crewmembers undergo comprehensive preemployment screening, including an assessment of the skills, aptitudes, airmanship, and suitability of each applicant for a position as a flight crewmember in terms of functioning effectively in the air carrier's operational environment.

(B) ALL FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS- Rules issued under paragraph (1) shall ensure that, after the date that is 3 years after the date of enactment of this Act, all flight crewmembers--
(i) have obtained an airline transport pilot certificate under part 61 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations; and
(ii) have appropriate multi-engine aircraft flight experience, as determined by the Administrator.
(b) Deadlines- The Administrator shall issue--
(1) not later than 180 days after the date of enactment of this Act, a notice of proposed rulemaking under subsection (a); and
(2) not later than 24 months after such date of enactment, a final rule under subsection (a).

(c) Default- The requirement that each flight crewmember for a part 121 air carrier hold an airline transport pilot certificate under part 61 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, shall begin to apply on the date that is 3 years after the date of enactment of this Act even if the Administrator fails to meet a deadline established under this section.
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Section B does not say "all current 121 pilots"...it says "all flight crewmembers." This would encompass new hires as they would become a flight crewmember. The only caviate I see is that it may be possible to be hired with a commerical as long as you aquire your ATP before flying the line.
 
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