Gonzo
Well-Known Member
You are paying to do something that should be a job. As in you should get paid to fly for a 121 airline. Where does it end, would you pay 20K for 250 hours of 757 time.
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You are paying to do something that should be a job. As in you should get paid to fly for a 121 airline. Where does it end, would you pay 20K for 250 hours of 757 time.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
Well get your excuse/justification refined, some day you may be unlucky enough to have a captain on a hiring board who wants you to explain why you helped torpedo his industry.
juxtapilot
Snowflake
No! It's not about flight time, it's about PAYING to fly an aircraft you SHOULD be PAID to fly.
ATP could probably get your financing through Gulfstream for the ACP program. Ask them if they can do that. In the end the decision is up to you.
okay okay okay, maybe i'm thinking about it wrong.
i came here to get educated on this.
didn't mean to ruffle feathers.
does anyone know why the loan rates are so much different?
GlenA
Senior Chicken Counter
ATP doesn't have "better" connections to the airlines especially in this economy. You are not going to jump the line through this program. And ATP may only be hiring CFI's from their graduate pool right now since CFI jobs are hard to come by, but a year ago they were grabbing whoever they could get. The economy is bad now, and 250 hours of turbine time that you bought through a program isn't going to give you a leg up. This is just a program ATP initiated with Gulfstream since both companies are struggeling to survive. Don't you think it's weird that you could suddenly get a loan for this program with the economy being so bad right now? Do yourself a favor and slow down and take your time. All you are doing is rushing yourself to the unemployment line.
juxtapilot
Snowflake
I don't think you've ruffled feathers. We're all just enthusiastic about educating!
Not sure what's going on with the loan process. It really doesnt make any sense. They are both unsecured loans and are high risk for the bank, you'd think the higher loan amount would have higher interest.
Use the search and look for threads about Gulfstream. Hopefully that will answer some of your questions.
Redundant.
Goonie
Never say die
You have to do a lot more than talking flight schools to ruffle my feathers.
I am not a 121 guy so I dont know tooo much about it, so I'll just echo what clocks said. You will one day be sitting across a hiring board having to explain your actions.
The old timers in the industry probably have no clue what Gulfstream is, but by the time you get to a major I can guarantee that they ALL will.
Welcome to JetCareers!
well, maybe i'm going off old info, but that was just to prove a point that fell flat.
i'm sure everyone is frustrated right now (including me). i've given up a few years of my life to get my finances in order for this. i get good news and all i hear on here is how bad a deal it is.
trust me, i'm all about getting the truth. it just always seems to be disappointing.
You have to do a lot more than talking flight schools to ruffle my feathers.
I am not a 121 guy so I dont know tooo much about it, so I'll just echo what clocks said. You will one day be sitting across a hiring board having to explain your actions.
The old timers in the industry probably have no clue what Gulfstream is, but by the time you get to a major I can guarantee that they ALL will.
Welcome to JetCareers!
thanks,
i did get a little flustered because i good news about a long awaited loan approval
and now thanks to you guys
ALL MY DREAMS ARE SHATTERED!!!
(just kidding)
what questions do i need to ask ATP about this loan, or what's up with gulfstream, etc.??
juxtapilot
Snowflake
well, maybe i'm going off old info, but that was just to prove a point that fell flat.
i'm sure everyone is frustrated right now (including me). i've given up a few years of my life to get my finances in order for this. i get good news and all i hear on here is how bad a deal it is.
trust me, i'm all about getting the truth. it just always seems to be disappointing.
Don't get too discouraged. The optimist in me says things will turn around, and he's pretty much always right.
Just be cautious. You will be spending A LOT of money no matter where you go. You can't go wrong doing research and you can't do too much research.
I once had a friend tell me that "When you mix what you love with money, sometimes you get hate." I've heard this from numerous 121 pilots. Just seems to be a theme in this industry.
More ATP specific, the accounting department is currently WAY unorganized. Be very careful with your money, and get everything in writing. Make sure you know all the terms of payment and such. Also, try to make sure you aren't one of the first people going through one of their new programs. ATP really doesn't know what they are doing with their new programs, and if they screw up they don't hold themselves accountable.
yeah, luckily i've picked up some pretty good habits while getting prepared for this. i'm currently debt free and budget everything i do.
i know that's true. i'm not really looking to get rich off this. so, hopefully that leaves emotional room for enjoyment.
i read through all the loan agreements and yes, there was a thousand here, thousand there that i need to discuss with them.
how are the checkrides paid out? they say the money can be in the loan but i'm a little unsure on that.
LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
Welcome to JC dude. Been here for 3 years now, and instructing at ATP for one year.
A few things about JC: Opinions here seem to be just that: Opinions here. I have spoken to an inordinate amount of professional pilots about this subject lately and for some reason I just can't find anyone out in the "real world" that has such a huge problem with this deal.
(My Opinion stated here)
Here at JC you will find some good advice, but you will also find alot of trolling and self-serving advice. There are actually people on here that did the Gulfstream program, are now successful at major airlines, but they will tell you how stupid you are to go to Gulfstream; Their excuse is they just did not know. Very conveinent. There are others that trained at a rival flight school, have decided they know everything about ATP, and will jump at any opportunity to rise their post count in the name of bashing anything that is ATP.
A few things about JC: Opinions here seem to be just that: Opinions here. I have spoken to an inordinate amount of professional pilots about this subject lately and for some reason I just can't find anyone out in the "real world" that has such a huge problem with this deal.
(My Opinion stated here)
Here at JC you will find some good advice, but you will also find alot of trolling and self-serving advice. There are actually people on here that did the Gulfstream program, are now successful at major airlines, but they will tell you how stupid you are to go to Gulfstream; Their excuse is they just did not know. Very conveinent. There are others that trained at a rival flight school, have decided they know everything about ATP, and will jump at any opportunity to rise their post count in the name of bashing anything that is ATP.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
I'm sure there are people out there who feel this way...for me it was more like 'if your job was to eat steaks cooked by the best chefs in the world it would be the greatest job you could image, but some days you don't want to eat steak but you have to anyways'. That's what day to day flying for the airlines was for me. It's the best damn job in the world, but it's still a job, so when you average it all out it ranks lower than other things in life.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
It can be, it depends on whether you add that to your loans or not. Most people I saw did. (my ATP background: I did my flight training at a university then I did the MEI/II addon at ATP and taught there in 07).
That's the internet dude! I think in general people are less vocal face to face out of courtesy. I'm pretty vocal about my political beliefs online, but I when I chat in person about it I'm much much more reserved, but my feelings are the same.
well, after staying up till 5 in the morning researching this last night, i'm seeing two forms of complaints:
A) "you're stupid for paying for a job when you could be getting paid"
B) "you'll be contributing to the depressing of pilots wages while stealing other pilots' jobs, and you'll never get a job with that on your resume."
i could care less what people think about my personal finance decisions. but i am seeing the moral dilemma that folks like clocks is referring to.
my question to everybody is:
is this moral dilemma enough to keep you from flying?
if PFJ was part of the only package you could get, would you take it?
or is this moral dilemma like debates about taxes? everyone hates taxes. sometimes, taxes even hurt business. but at some point, somebody's gotta pay for roads and the military. it's a bad decision you have to make.
A) "you're stupid for paying for a job when you could be getting paid"
B) "you'll be contributing to the depressing of pilots wages while stealing other pilots' jobs, and you'll never get a job with that on your resume."
i could care less what people think about my personal finance decisions. but i am seeing the moral dilemma that folks like clocks is referring to.
my question to everybody is:
is this moral dilemma enough to keep you from flying?
if PFJ was part of the only package you could get, would you take it?
or is this moral dilemma like debates about taxes? everyone hates taxes. sometimes, taxes even hurt business. but at some point, somebody's gotta pay for roads and the military. it's a bad decision you have to make.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
There's no reason to pay for it! It has no value!
In terms of procedures, decision making, piloting, etc, I learned more in a few hundred hours of flight instructing at ATP (especially the instrument instruction) than I did at expressjet.
What did expressjet teach me? They taught me about the ERJ-145, how to start the engines, what oil pressure range the engine has to stay in, go to amazon.com you can learn about the ERJ for $50. Yeah I learned (a little, relative to other more experienced pilots) about the technique of flying the ERJ too, when to put the flaps down, how to handle different situations ATC loves to put you in. But when you're looking at "The Knowledge It Takes To Be A Pilot", that's tiny relative to learning the fundamentals; how to safely operate in IFR conditions, and the countless other things you'll learn and master during your initial training and as a CFI. And you already said you're going to CFI anyways, so you're going to have the opportunity to learn these things first hand. Listen to the captains complain online about their crappy FOs, what are they complaining about? FO's that don't know the fundamentals. In contrast every captain I flew with was more than happy to give their opinion or explain their actions in those weird airline-only scenarios that occasionally come up.
So what are you getting for $25,000? You're buying a little bit of practice about the technique of flying the Beech 1900D.
If I had to apply percentages to the value of all of your flight training....
Training up to CFI - 45% ($50,000)
Working as a CFI - 45% (you get paid)
Working as a FO - 10% (you get paid)
Pay $25,000 for a glimpse at that last 10%? Not worth it.
The other argument people make is 'it's worth it because I'll get to see airline training ahead of time'. People see working as an FO as some huge jump in skill or knowledge, it's not. It's a perfectly reasonable and normal next step if you've built a strong foundation. You don't need to pay $25,000 to get a glimpse at airline ground school. You dont need to pay $6000 for a pseudo CRJ course. You just need to master the basics (by being a good CFI, especially the instrument stuff), and airline ground school will be a smaller step than getting your CFI will be.
In terms of procedures, decision making, piloting, etc, I learned more in a few hundred hours of flight instructing at ATP (especially the instrument instruction) than I did at expressjet.
What did expressjet teach me? They taught me about the ERJ-145, how to start the engines, what oil pressure range the engine has to stay in, go to amazon.com you can learn about the ERJ for $50. Yeah I learned (a little, relative to other more experienced pilots
) about the technique of flying the ERJ too, when to put the flaps down, how to handle different situations ATC loves to put you in. But when you're looking at "The Knowledge It Takes To Be A Pilot", that's tiny relative to learning the fundamentals; how to safely operate in IFR conditions, and the countless other things you'll learn and master during your initial training and as a CFI. And you already said you're going to CFI anyways, so you're going to have the opportunity to learn these things first hand. Listen to the captains complain online about their crappy FOs, what are they complaining about? FO's that don't know the fundamentals. In contrast every captain I flew with was more than happy to give their opinion or explain their actions in those weird airline-only scenarios that occasionally come up.So what are you getting for $25,000? You're buying a little bit of practice about the technique of flying the Beech 1900D.
If I had to apply percentages to the value of all of your flight training....
Training up to CFI - 45% ($50,000)
Working as a CFI - 45% (you get paid)
Working as a FO - 10% (you get paid)
Pay $25,000 for a glimpse at that last 10%? Not worth it.
The other argument people make is 'it's worth it because I'll get to see airline training ahead of time'. People see working as an FO as some huge jump in skill or knowledge, it's not. It's a perfectly reasonable and normal next step if you've built a strong foundation. You don't need to pay $25,000 to get a glimpse at airline ground school. You dont need to pay $6000 for a pseudo CRJ course. You just need to master the basics (by being a good CFI, especially the instrument stuff), and airline ground school will be a smaller step than getting your CFI will be.
well, in my case, i could be the difference between 5% and 15% financing. which means $560 per month or $960 per month to get the other ATP stuff.
i understand that the PFJ training may not be worth the over all dollar amount. but if it means i can make it month to month on the ATP pvt+career, i might just take the $20K hit and the weight of the moral questions.
i don't know yet.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
I find that situation really frustrating. They are going to charge you $5000/year in interest for 20 years for not taking the gulfstream program.
*edit* According to bankrate.com $50,000 at 15% for 20 years costs you $158,000. $75,000 at 5% for 20 years costs you $118,000. Gulfstream must be supplementing that rate since it's cheaper than paying actual employees.
I would recommend aggressively pursuing any means that could get you the $50k at a lower interest rate.
that's why i'm here to see what folks think
. i'm just trying to prepare myself for some hard decisions.the more i look at the ATP website, the more it seems like they took on this joint deal for the financing option alone.
*edit* it seems like i remember ATP having it's own "pay for extra multi time" program for like $35K, but i don't see it on their website anymore. so, why would they want to have another company do that for them when they could be making the money themselves? it may be for the financing deal.
i'm going to talk to them tomorrow and see what we can do.
*edit* just to add, the 15% i'm talking about is from when i had a lower credit score. but my fear is the current market is going to kick me in the shorts. that's why i'm adamant about seeing if this GS deal is good or not because i got such a good initial rate quote.
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