"Airline Internship" at ATP?

[Hubbs]

If you honestly feel that you are not in a position to pay as you go based on your current income, AND you are dead set on becoming a professional pilot AND you are willing to get yourself into BIG debt to do so, it seems to me that you would be crazy not to do the Gulfstream deal based on the simple fact that it is going to cost you $27,000 more in the long run.

This is not to say that I endorse Gulfstream in any way, I am very very anti the PFT/PFJ, and I do agree with the general consensus that pregrams like these are contributing to the denegration of the industry and the profession. Personally, I would not recommend anyone to get into debt to learn to fly, however, if you are going to do so you should do whatever costs you the least. $27,000 is not insignificant.

You will obviously need to deal with the moral/ethical issues, but if you explained your situation to me, I certainly wouldn't hold any grudges, that unfortunately will not apply to other, more vocal anti-pfj-ers. You may face issues on interview pannels in the future, I'm not sure. I guess that is a risk you'll have to decide on.

If you do decide to go down this route, I suggest you make sure you have enough cash saved up (maybe $10k) to get your CFI, CFII and MEI after you leave Gulfstream so at least you have some job prospects afterwards. Once the regionals do start hiring again and you have a few hundred hours of dual given, I think that 250hrs of multi-engine, turbine, 121 time can only help you.

Are you sure you can't pay as you go?

 

[w88manj]

You will obviously need to deal with the moral/ethical issues, but if you explained your situation to me, I certainly wouldn't hold any grudges, that unfortunately will not apply to other, more vocal anti-pfj-ers. You may face issues on interview pannels in the future, I'm not sure. I guess that is a risk you'll have to decide on.

i have no doubt i could BS my way through an interview. but that doesn't get me past my own conscience. the more i think of the moral implications, the less attractive it looks. basically, i've had a pit in my stomach all day. luckily, i have an easy job driving a courier car. although, the problem is you're by yourself and in your own head all day too.

Are you sure you can't pay as you go?

well, at my current pay rate, it would take me 4-5 years (without eating) to make the equivalent of ATP's career program (at their prices). i've already given up 2 and a half years to pay off my credit cards, max out my credit score and save a few thousand dollars.

i actually just heard of a guy i went to high school with who's trying to get his hours in chunks and is struggling pretty bad.

 

[NolePilot]

If you do decide to go down this route, I suggest you make sure you have enough cash saved up (maybe $10k) to get your CFI, CFII and MEI after you leave Gulfstream so at least you have some job prospects afterwards. Once the regionals do start hiring again and you have a few hundred hours of dual given, I think that 250hrs of multi-engine, turbine, 121 time can only help you.

The ATP/Gulfstream program includes all three instructor certificates.

 

[w88manj]

He could try to get the loan through PNC, using Gulfstream Academy as the school. Since ATP has their "agreement" or whatever you call it with Gulfstream it might work. Not completely sure, but it's worth a shot.

Ok that is what I thought, but yeah he is already trying to get the loan through Gulfstream , or PNC bank, using the Gulfstream/ATP program from what he has said.

jux, i can see what you're saying, but that option was never given to me. i did try to ask how could i get rid of the "extra GS principal". maybe i was being to nice, i didn't want to insult the loan guy at ATP. i'm sure he realizes what kinda deal they made.

and loadmaster, i can see what you're saying. i would think if ATP tried to do a "run around" with the PNC bank, that would probably be kicking their new business partner (gulfstream) in the nuts.

 

[wrxpilot]

Not true at all....If I was hired in the Fall-Winter of 2006, I would not be furloughed from any airline except maybe Xjet, and even that one is questionable.

I've done the FBO and worked at ATP and would tell newbies the complete opposite.

I'm not sure I understand... You said you were looking to start 3 years ago, which would be March 2006. If you were doing the 9 month program, you'd be done at the end of November 2006. You'd have to flight instruct for at least a couple of months, so you'd be interviewing for jobs around early spring 2007. Getting hired in 2007 didn't turn out too well for a lot of guys. So you'd be furloughed with lots of debt. You wish you'd done that why?

 

[wrxpilot]

I would rather just go to ATP and skip the Gulfstream part. Sure, 250 hours of turbine would look great on what would be my low-timer's resume, but I don't really like the nature of the operation.

I really don't think it looks as good on a low time resume as you might think. 250 hrs of dual given looks much better.

 

[wjmiller3]

I'm not sure I understand... You said you were looking to start 3 years ago, which would be March 2006. If you were doing the 9 month program, you'd be done at the end of November 2006. You'd have to flight instruct for at least a couple of months, so you'd be interviewing for jobs around early spring 2007. Getting hired in 2007 didn't turn out too well for a lot of guys. So you'd be furloughed with lots of debt. You wish you'd done that why?

The program is 3 months(unless we are talking self paced), and if he started then I am pretty sure he would be safe. The only maybe would be XJET. I know more that were hired in 07 still working than furloughed. Republic, Eagle, Colgan, ASA, Mesaba to name a few off the top of my head.

 

[Strychnine]

I really don't think it looks as good on a low time resume as you might think. 250 hrs of dual given looks much better.

If I went through ATP + Gulfstream, I'd want to find a good CFI gig and instruct for awhile. I'm not looking to get around instructing by going to Gulfstream. I'd be looking to take advantage of the nice interest rates and go to ATP + Gulfstream in order to get into instructing afterwards. I like the idea of teaching, and I'd want the experience.

 

[wrxpilot]

The program is 3 months(unless we are talking self paced), and if he started then I am pretty sure he would be safe. The only maybe would be XJET. I know more that were hired in 07 still working than furloughed. Republic, Eagle, Colgan, ASA, Mesaba to name a few off the top of my head.

I didn't know most people did the 3 month... Well damn if I did that when I started in 2004 I'd be a regional capt holding a line right now! Oh well, I still like not having debt.

 

[Callador]

It can be, it depends on whether you add that to your loans or not. Most people I saw did. (my ATP background: I did my flight training at a university then I did the MEI/II addon at ATP and taught there in 07).

That's the internet dude! I think in general people are less vocal face to face out of courtesy. I'm pretty vocal about my political beliefs online, but I when I chat in person about it I'm much much more reserved, but my feelings are the same.

I think you both have a point. I too have talked to professionals about Gulfstream, and most of them have no idea what it is. Like I mentioned earlier in thread, we had a guy come through with Gulfstream time, and DE (who is also a Captain for Continental) didn't know anything about it. So Loadmaster has a point.

But I think the other argument still stands though. Give it 5-10 years and a lot of the younger guys who know about Gulfstream will be in airline hiring positions. This could have an adverse effect on getting hired. I say "could" because it still may not happen. In the end, HR and the Chief Pilots may not care where you got your time. As it stands now, some places prefer turbine time, so they look at Gulfstream as a good thing.

I personally would never go to Gulfstream, nor would I advise others to go there. It is PFJ pure and simple. But I can see why others like the idea of going there, especially with the way they market it.

 

[LoadMasterC141]

I'm not sure I understand... You said you were looking to start 3 years ago, which would be March 2006. If you were doing the 9 month program, you'd be done at the end of November 2006. You'd have to flight instruct for at least a couple of months, so you'd be interviewing for jobs around early spring 2007. Getting hired in 2007 didn't turn out too well for a lot of guys. So you'd be furloughed with lots of debt. You wish you'd done that why?

Mar 2006 - It's a 3 month program - Done in May 2006 -Instruct until fall 2006 - Get job - No furlough.

But lets go ahead with your scenario, because I don't think I would have started until summer '06 anyway. Find me one furloughed pilot that was hired in the early spring of 2007. Besides a small possibility of Xjet, there is not another regional that I would be furloughed from.
In fact, if I was hired as late as summer of 2007, I would be safe at all but Xjet.
Take it further...Fall 2007, safe at all but Xjet, TSA, and AWAC.
Winter 2007 - Spring 2008..Still safe at most regionals. In fact, I always wanted to work at Republic. A gentleman on the board here was hired there in Jan 2008 and is still there!

Ya know as much as I regret not going to ATP, I really do love instructing though, so it is not like I am sitting here stewing or anything. I am just making a simple point that I should have jumped at opportunity when it was there, not listened to others I have never met, and not ASSume that the spree was going to go on for a long time.

 

[surreal1221]

I find it pretty sad that ATP is now in the business of producing a whole flock of aviators who will - due to their own attendence - think that going to Gulfstream is "Normal."

 

[wrxpilot]

But lets go ahead with your scenario, because I don't think I would have started until summer '06 anyway. Find me one furloughed pilot that was hired in the early spring of 2007.

I have to admit, I thought a lot of the furloughs went further back then that. My mistake...

 

[w88manj]

personal update:

i didn't take the ATP+Gulfstream offer. still couldn't stomach the payments/PFJ.

i'm looking at a really good A&P program at the local community college. all things considered, it's probably a better deal for me right now anyway. i worked on cars for 6 years. so, i think i'll enjoy it. and $8K is a hell of a lot easier to swallow than $80K.

thanks for the info.:nana2:

 

[guywhoflies]

Good choice. You should not be in any hurry to get all your training now, because the airlines are not hiring anytime soon. If you decide that you still want to fly later on, I think you will be A LOT more marketable with a A & P and all your pilot certificates/ratings than 250 hours of turbine time you paid for.

 

[nkoenig]

personal update:

i didn't take the ATP+Gulfstream offer. still couldn't stomach the payments/PFJ.

i'm looking at a really good A&P program at the local community college. all things considered, it's probably a better deal for me right now anyway. i worked on cars for 6 years. so, i think i'll enjoy it. and $8K is a hell of a lot easier to swallow than $80K.

thanks for the info.:nana2:

I think that is a EXCELLENT choice. Good on you..

 

[surreal1221]

personal update:

i didn't take the ATP+Gulfstream offer. still couldn't stomach the payments/PFJ.

i'm looking at a really good A&P program at the local community college. all things considered, it's probably a better deal for me right now anyway. i worked on cars for 6 years. so, i think i'll enjoy it. and $8K is a hell of a lot easier to swallow than $80K.

thanks for the info.:nana2:

Sounds like you've made a wonderful decision for your self.

Best of luck!

 

[TUCRACEMAN]

I find it pretty sad that ATP is now in the business of producing a whole flock of aviators who will - due to their own attendence - think that going to Gulfstream is "Normal."

Troof. Won't elaborate more as I have an undying and incredible disdain for ATP and their two "chief" instructors at IWA.

~D

 

[surreal1221]

Well, sadly ATP isn't alone in this little business practice.

 

[mwflyer]

I find it pretty sad that ATP is now in the business of producing a whole flock of aviators who will - due to their own attendence - think that going to Gulfstream is "Normal."

Worse than that is that when the regionals start to hire again, Gulfstream time will start to be looked at like an rj course was in the last hiring wave.