XJT AIP

I thought his joke was hilarious and that you maybe need to go get you some. You seem a little intense.

This is your response to that really? Come on man!! All I'm saying is that we shouldn't automatically expect less and less. Neither of us said that we would automatically vote no, no matter what. What's wrong with that? Is my argument not valid because I don't have 10,000 posts on this board? Did i say something incorrect? I love this site but it really seems like if you're not a network JC member with a ton of posts you're not valid on here. I come off intense because written posts can't convey tone. I've been on here for more than a few years now taking in all of the information and making the best decisions I can. Don't Jump all over me dudes. Geez
 
Like I said, XJT can't afford what I consider to be "enough" because of their contracts with their mainline partners. Once they go back to them and ask for more money they may finally be able to pay what I'm worth. Do you want a quantitative answer? How about Delta work rules + Delta RJ pay rates? That's reasonable to me, while completely unrealistic. Guess I'll be one of those pain in the ass whiny no-voting RJ pilots. I'm not going to bow to the pressure from some (fewer and fewer) pilots and our Union (ALPA), to vote yes to a terrible contract that will "keep the company operating." Honestly, whether or not the company stays in business plays no part in how I'll vote.

Look, I get what you are saying, regionals definitely deserve to be paid more, but would Delta work rules even work at XJT? Are the work rules even going to matter that much with Part 117 coming in January? Does Delta even have 50 seat RJ rates? If the costing of the contract is going to cost the company MORE than they are currently paying, is it a 'concessionary deal' like some are throwing out here?

I think @BobDDuck spelled it out VERY nicely in post 34 about reasonable expectations.
 
The question is the spread between what the major is paying and what it would cost them to do it themselves. As for Delta having an RJ rate, they do don't they? It's the DC-9 rate. 8)
 
Look, I get what you are saying, regionals definitely deserve to be paid more, but would Delta work rules even work at XJT? Are the work rules even going to matter that much with Part 117 coming in January? Does Delta even have 50 seat RJ rates? If the costing of the contract is going to cost the company MORE than they are currently paying, is it a 'concessionary deal' like some are throwing out here?

I think @BobDDuck spelled it out VERY nicely in post 34 about reasonable expectations.

Well you are completely missing the point. I don't care whether or not DL rules would work at XJT. It's not relevant because the kind of rules that DL pilots have are much more beneficial to their pilots than our rules are to our pilots. Your nitpicking stuff I've said that has ZERO to do with anything. You know what the funny thing is? My expectations CAN work, and DO work elsewhere in the world. But a lot has to change here in the US to make it work.

My expectations are reasonable. Just unrealistic-in the present economic (airline) model. This may be the ONE time in the history of the world I've ever disagreed with @BobDDuck.

You guys are expecting too little, just as a majority of the Delta pilots did when they voted in their newest contract. Had they set their expectations higher they could have gone to the drawing board and got more money and better work rules (whatever that may be). However, they had already lowered their expectations and came out with a contract that was an improvement--nothing more than an improvement.

The same thing has been happening in the IT industry over the past 5 years. Employees are lowering their expectations and their self worth. They are working for less because they "don't think" they are worth more. So by this time you've googled this fact and noticed that the salaries in IT are in fact going up. Got me!! Well not really, because if you look at the salary data you'll see that employees coming in from outside the US are making HIGHER salaries than those born stateside. Why? Because they have a higher self worth than their American counterparts and are able to negotiate high pay based on what they think they, and their skills, are worth.

That isn't likely to happen in the airline industry due to union and security issues, but if it did, and all of the sudden airlines started bringing in foreign workers, their pay rates would VERY likely be higher than ours.
 
You guys are expecting too little, just as a majority of the Delta pilots did when they voted in their newest contract. Had they set their expectations higher they could have gone to the drawing board and got more money and better work rules (whatever that may be). However, they had already lowered their expectations and came out with a contract that was an improvement--nothing more than an improvement.

Keep in mind that Delta can't just go find somebody else to do the scoped out flying if their guys demand better wages/QOL etc like they can for the none scoped flying.

What happens if ExpressJet pilots won't sign yes on anything less than "Delta RJ" wages and work rules (what ever those happen to be)?

The company says hell no and it gets dragged out with mediator from the NMB (who by the way will never release a pilot group to strike over something that isn't "realistic" in the current environment, as you your self have said Delta RJ rates wouldn't be today) and eventually the company will give you their last, best and final offer and then you'll be frozen by the NMB. So you'll be flying with your current contract for years longer.

Or, maybe the company says ok and gives you the payrates you are asking for (see: United 2000). Their costs go through the roof and they have to go back to the companies they have the contracts with (Delta, United etc) and ask for more money per block hour. Delta/United laugh at them and say that if ExpressJet can't do the flying for the agreed upon costs (or less) they will find somebody who can. At this point either the flying goes to a cheaper company (and there are plenty of those out there because they have a) already caved, b) are non union so they can do whatever they want or c) have very low longevity and hence a cheaper cost structure), OR ExpressJet keeps flying while losing money left and right and eventually declares Chapter 7 or 11.

So you see it's going to result in a very negative outcome for the pilot group either way. And I understand that many guys, especially FOs, would rather burn a place to the ground and start over somewhere else than take concessions, but that's not really the most logical way of doing things. The new place to go will probably be hiring because they have just been awarded new flying because they are the cheapest option (most likely because of reasons A or B above and now you have shut down a mature, higher end (if that's even possible in the regional industry), most likely union shop and moved on to a lower end place. How does that help the industry as a whole, or even your own paycheck?

I'd never tell anybody how to vote on anything. All I'm saying is that sometimes the bigger picture is bigger than phrases like StopTheWhipsaw and OneList!111!!!!
 
I'd never tell anybody how to vote on anything. All I'm saying is that sometimes the bigger picture is bigger than phrases like StopTheWhipsaw and OneList!111!!!!

Like I said, probably one of the only things we'll disagree on. The problem is that the regional industry is trending downwards instead of up. I'd rather be one of the crazies spouting off nonsense about self worth than one of the company men saying the company is gonna die if we don't work for free. If you draw the line (wage v. labor), eventually you'll end up at zero a heeellll of a lot faster than you guys realize.

A quick (very rough) economics model where 2000 (use captains in this case ) out of 8000 TOTAL RJ pilots walked off the job tomorrow, pay would have to go up 75% across the board at all regionals just to realize a pilot group of 8000 once again.

All I'm trying to show you guys is that the industry has reached rock bottom, but WILL keep going lower, and lower, and lower, until pilots realize they are actually worth something. Stop the whipsaw makes this statement-poorly-but would actually be a step in the right direction if pilots weren't back stabbing weasels.
 
This is your response to that really? Come on man!! All I'm saying is that we shouldn't automatically expect less and less. Neither of us said that we would automatically vote no, no matter what. What's wrong with that? Is my argument not valid because I don't have 10,000 posts on this board? Did i say something incorrect? I love this site but it really seems like if you're not a network JC member with a ton of posts you're not valid on here. I come off intense because written posts can't convey tone. I've been on here for more than a few years now taking in all of the information and making the best decisions I can. Don't Jump all over me dudes. Geez

It was mostly that Ethan's joke was pretty funny and you seemed to get rather butt hurt about it.
 
Theres a lot of those going around...((back stabbing weasels...and they wear different cloths and different titles, depending on your perspective, but don't trust anyone).

Escape while you can guys. Have that other, legit career, on back-up ready to go. If you don't, well, don't say no one didn't warn you. Do not become one of these grumpy guys who thought they'd be at mainline after only a few years, then 9/11 happened, then the Great Recession, and then...well...CRJ-200 and ERJ-145 evaporating faster than Santa can arrive.

What am I saying...who am I kidding...

ExpressJet and SkyWest Inc. are awesome-sauce and they really do care about YOU and YOUR problems.

So long, and thanks for all the [damn] TURKEY COUPONS
 
It was mostly that Ethan's joke was pretty funny and you seemed to get rather butt hurt about it.
My response was not to the joke but the insinuation that people shouldn't expect so much. I just disagree with that. I really don't care about the joke man. Seriously..this is an internet forum. I would have a lot more serious problems if i got upset over something that trivial and i mean that in the least intense way as possible. I don't post as often as i read but this is a topic I do care a lot about. I was a career changer (from outside the industry) so I have perspective on what it's like to live outside of the pilot life. I don't make these comments out of ignorance to the facts and realities that we face. I read, I care, and I pay attention. The Facts BobDDuck laid out are exactly correct if not depressingly so. But just accepting things as they are, and in fact just expecting lower and lower is not something I want to participate in. The new "reasonable expectations" are in fact not reasonable. The supply of pilots (for the regionals) is starting to look smaller and smaller. Airlines are offering signing bonuses and mainline is hiring. Even if the younger regionals (with their lower longevity) could win every flying contract how are they going to staff it? It's with those things in mind that I get fired up or "intense" when someone says we are asking for too much. I am well aware that I am part of the problem by default for showing up to work everyday at a regional. But I had no expectations of upgrade in 2 years or a mainline job right away so I have to fight to keep what I have left.
 
I'm gonna be one of those wackos who actually looks across the fence with the other pilot group and agree with them. I've been listening to all this "we bought them/they think they bought us/they're trying to screw us/they would have gone bankrupt if it wasn't for us" nonsense being spouted off by every random pilot and FA for three years now and I have to say I'm over it. The fact is that Skywest Inc. bought XJ for one reason: to make money. In buying XJ, they also bought their pilot contract. It was an investment decision and so far has turned out to be a poor one. I can't blame an XJ pilot for not wanting to scrap their current contract just because they are told to. Fact is, if Skywest can't make money on the merged co. or appropriately whipsaw the pilot groups against each other, they'll probably just tank the whole company anyway. I just pray I'm not here when that goes down.
 
Great. 8( Day 1 done. Problem is I've had the misfortune to shut the lights off at two divisions in my career (not aviation). Number threes the charm right?
 
Great. 8( Day 1 done. Problem is I've had the misfortune to shut the lights off at two divisions in my career (not aviation). Number threes the charm right?

"Don't worry, you'll upgrade by this summer. 1000 PIC in your back pocket by next summer. No problem."

haha I'm betting I'm not the only one that heard that coming out of initial training.
 
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