XJT AIP

juxtapilot said:
They do.. They may feed you lunch, or may not. Don't judge our union by the guys who show up at your indoc class. Generally speaking, they give the union a bad rap.
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I'm there the week the AIP is to come out. So they won't have any real info?
 
juxtapilot said:
They do.. They may feed you lunch, or may not. Don't judge our union by the guys who show up at your indoc class. Generally speaking, they give the union a bad rap.
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This! We had one come to class the first week on Wednesday (maybe?), he brought some food from a local burrito place. Spent his time mostly waving at everyone walking past, inviting them to eat the food and engaging them in a 5min banter about nonsense while they crafted their burrito masterpiece. I learned nothing, really.
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
I'm there the week the AIP is to come out. So they won't have any real info?
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Any information will be made available to all pilots. Granted, you're a new hire and will not be able to vote, as best my memory serves.

Welcome aboard.
 
All I hear are the people that say they will be voting no. The fact that they still haven't seen what is in the contract is interesting. That said the MEC sent out an email that made it sound like they may not even send a concessionary TA out to vote without some sort of give from the company in return for their take.
 
Maurus said:
All I hear are the people that say they will be voting no. The fact that they still haven't seen what is in the contract is interesting. That said the MEC sent out an email that made it sound like they may not even send a concessionary TA out to vote without some sort of give from the company in return for their take.
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Yea I new FO told me they would vote NO but of course hadn't seen the language. 8)
 
Maurus said:
All I hear are the people that say they will be voting no. The fact that they still haven't seen what is in the contract is interesting. That said the MEC sent out an email that made it sound like they may not even send a concessionary TA out to vote without some sort of give from the company in return for their take.
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It's actually not that interesting. The contract will not be enough for me to vote yes on. The company cannot afford to provide me what I want until they go back to the mainline carriers and say hey dudes we waaayy lowballed our last bid and need more cash.. Once they do that I will vote yes.

Sure, the company may go under if it has to do that, but what's it matter when XJT isn't gonna exist in 5 years anyway?
 
juxtapilot said:
It's actually not that interesting. The contract will not be enough for me to vote yes on. The company cannot afford to provide me what I want until they go back to the mainline carriers and say hey dudes we waaayy lowballed our last bid and need more cash.. Once they do that I will vote yes.

Sure, the company may go under if it has to do that, but what's it matter when XJT isn't gonna exist in 5 years anyway?
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There ya have it. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it is what it is.
 
juxtapilot said:
It's actually not that interesting. The contract will not be enough for me to vote yes on. The company cannot afford to provide me what I want until they go back to the mainline carriers and say hey dudes we waaayy lowballed our last bid and need more cash.. Once they do that I will vote yes.

Sure, the company may go under if it has to do that, but what's it matter when XJT isn't gonna exist in 5 years anyway?
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They grow up so fast. Right @Derg
 
juxtapilot said:
It's actually not that interesting. The contract will not be enough for me to vote yes on. The company cannot afford to provide me what I want until they go back to the mainline carriers and say hey dudes we waaayy lowballed our last bid and need more cash.. Once they do that I will vote yes.
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Just out of curiosity, what will be 'enough' for you to vote yes on?
 
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BobDDuck said:
He obviously wants turn down service and a mint on the pillow at all overnights.
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Where in his post does it say he "obviously" wants that? I think the point is that he will vote no to a concession which is exactly what he SHOULD do if the contract presented is a loss. I'm not ignorant to the challenges our company and industry faces BUT there isnt enough smoke in this world to blow up my ass to get me to vote yes to a concessionary contract from a job that BARELY pays enough to live on. And when i say live I don't mean bills are paid at the end of the month with $0 left. I mean live like have a decent life.
 
DenverPilot8 said:
Where in his post does it say he "obviously" wants that? I think the point is that he will vote no to a concession which is exactly what he SHOULD do if the contract presented is a loss. I'm not ignorant to the challenges our company and industry faces BUT there isnt enough smoke in this world to blow up my ass to get me to vote yes to a concessionary contract from a job that BARELY pays enough to live on. And when i say live I don't mean bills are paid at the end of the month with $0 left. I mean live like have a decent life.
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Here that wooshing noise? That's the joke going over your head. But no worries man. It doesn't matter in the end.

The thing is, NOBODY knows what's inside that TA, except the guys on the Negotiating Committee and probably the MEC leadership. Is it concessionary? Probably, but YOU (and every other line pilot) don't know that for sure, so running around screaming VOTE NO! is kind of an silly thing to do. Sure, you have some expectations that have to be met before you'll vote yes, and that's fine, but until you KNOW that the deal doesn't meet your expectations, why would you say how you going to vote?

Quick story...

When we were roadshowing the contract at PSA (not the deal they just signed, but the actual Section 6 negotiations back in the spring), one of the very senior (and very grumpy) captains walked in to the crewroom in the middle of a presentation, interrupted the NC chair who was presenting to about 20 pilots and asked if we'd got him his $135 an hour pay rate. Our old top out pay was about $95 an hour so he was expecting a 40% raise. When the NC chair laughed and said no, the guy goes "#### it... I'm a no vote" and walked out of the room.

Now, keep in mind this guy used to be the NC chair and in fact, brought in the last contract we had. He knew how the game works, but he chose just one thing (and an unreasonable thing at that) to base his voting choice on. Of course, after he read the rest of the deal he did end up voting yes, but the damage was already done. Lots of new FOs only heard the story about his crewroom antics and based their vote on what they thought this guy did.

And a final note... There has been in the past few years a lot of rabble rousing coming from legacy guys (@Derg) who have felt that the latest contracts they have been offered (and then voted in by a majority) don't do nearly enough to compensate them for their sacrifice over the last 12 years. And while I agree that this contracts should have been better, those are guys at legacies. That is their company making money and their flying to do. It is NOT a regional where they are simply the lowest (or almost lowest) bidder doing a contract job. You need to have real world expectations of what kind of leverage you can assert over your management. Don't take this as me advocating that a pilot group vote in a crappy contact. If I'd still been at PSA I would have been very vocal in my opposition to the their recent deal. However, it is important to have reasonable expectations of what you can manage to wrangle in as a contract carrier in with the current industry environment, because voting no and sending a deal back to the table doesn't mean the deal will get better.

And finally (I lied about the previous final note)... ASA and ExpressJet guys need to do a little looking in the mirror before complaining too much about the current state they are in. The line bid vs. PBS debate (and now the what type of PBS debate) went on entirely too long and burned up a huge amount of negotiating capital. Understand that the present situation is not entirely one of your own making, but probably could have been avoided a while back.
 
It's clearly you who doesn't get it. Your "joke" has nobody laughing. It was an arrogant comment insinuating that he shouldn't ask for so much. It is exactly this attitude that has driven regional pilots in general to under-bid each other and then continue to expect less and less. I didn't say VOTE NO no matter what did I? I said that "IF" it proves to be concessionary then I will vote no. I don't need a lecture on what my real world expectations should be (even though real world expectations are that the contract most likely will be concessionary). I know what the realities are. It's not up to you to designate or tell people what they should expect in return for a yes vote.

Quick Story,

If EVERY regional voted no to concessions then there are only 2 outcomes assuming the amount of flying stays the same.

#1. Mainline carriers will pay more until someone takes the job
#2 Mainline carriers will have to do the flying themselves.

This would never happen but it's pretty simple.
We are on the best side of the supply and demand curve that we have been in a long time as pilots (signing bonuses anyone?). Stop "expecting" less dude..."expect" more.
 
Seggy said:
Just out of curiosity, what will be 'enough' for you to vote yes on?
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Like I said, XJT can't afford what I consider to be "enough" because of their contracts with their mainline partners. Once they go back to them and ask for more money they may finally be able to pay what I'm worth. Do you want a quantitative answer? How about Delta work rules + Delta RJ pay rates? That's reasonable to me, while completely unrealistic. Guess I'll be one of those pain in the ass whiny no-voting RJ pilots. I'm not going to bow to the pressure from some (fewer and fewer) pilots and our Union (ALPA), to vote yes to a terrible contract that will "keep the company operating." Honestly, whether or not the company stays in business plays no part in how I'll vote.
 
DenverPilot8 said:
If EVERY regional voted no to concessions then there are only 2 outcomes assuming the amount of flying stays the same.

#1. Mainline carriers will pay more until someone takes the job
#2 Mainline carriers will have to do the flying themselves.
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Here's the part you are missing. Pilot pay rates and work rules, although a large part of the pie don't tell the whole story. Longevity plays a huge role. For example, you could take GoJet's entire contract at ExpressJet and still not be competitive. How do you think Compass has stayed in as good shape as they have, with what is arguably a pretty good contract? Their MOST senior captain is at 8 years (I think?) and as the Delta Flows continue to move on, that number will only come down. Think about how many topped out captains established regional have. There is no way to compete.

So I'd add one more item to your list:

#3 A new regional will start up and do the flying for cheaper because of their lack of longevity.
 
I'm voting no unless it's another XJT bankrupting contract!

No way Jose! One millllllionnnn dollarssss
 
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DenverPilot8 said:
It's clearly you who doesn't get it. Your "joke" has nobody laughing. It was an arrogant comment insinuating that he shouldn't ask for so much. It is exactly this attitude that has driven regional pilots in general to under-bid each other and then continue to expect less and less. I didn't say VOTE NO no matter what did I? I said that "IF" it proves to be concessionary then I will vote no. I don't need a lecture on what my real world expectations should be (even though real world expectations are that the contract most likely will be concessionary). I know what the realities are. It's not up to you to designate or tell people what they should expect in return for a yes vote.

Quick Story,

If EVERY regional voted no to concessions then there are only 2 outcomes assuming the amount of flying stays the same.

#1. Mainline carriers will pay more until someone takes the job
#2 Mainline carriers will have to do the flying themselves.

This would never happen but it's pretty simple.
We are on the best side of the supply and demand curve that we have been in a long time as pilots (signing bonuses anyone?). Stop "expecting" less dude..."expect" more.
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I thought his joke was hilarious and that you maybe need to go get you some. You seem a little intense.
 
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