XJT AIP

ComplexHiAv8r said:
They still owe me the 2am cab ride at the beginning of my adventure here... ($31)
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Did you submit an expense report? You'll probably have a hard time getting refunded until you put that in. The refund actually is processed at the mothership headquarters.

Also, you should be at the Doubletree Hobby and they provide a van. Travel Alliance is supposed to make sure there is transportation. I say keyword supposed to because I had to stay at another hotel for a couple days in Hobby and they dropped the ball on that so I had to cab it. Refunded within 5 days or so.
 
Bama said:
A "no" vote at pinnacle would not have made their situation any worse. That's all BS and they know it
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How are you saying it is BS???????

When a company is in Bankruptcy, management can ask the courts to impose working conditions for those employees who have collectively bargained a contract. Usually the courts won't impose those working conditions unless management and the union meet and try to work out a deal. So, the Endeavor MEC did try to get as good as a deal as they could get, with NO leverage. If a majority of the Endeavor MEC and Pilots voted 'no', the company could have very easily turned to the court and said, they voted 'no' on this deal, we want to impose our own set of rules then.
 
Seggy said:
How are you saying it is BS???????

When a company is in Bankruptcy, management can ask the courts to impose working conditions for those employees who have collectively bargained a contract. Usually the courts won't impose those working conditions unless management and the union meet and try to work out a deal. So, the Endeavor MEC did try to get as good as a deal as they could get, with NO leverage. If a majority of the Endeavor MEC and Pilots voted 'no', the company could have very easily turned to the court and said, they voted 'no' on this deal, we want to impose our own set of rules then.
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My point is that it gets pretty tiring to hear these guys justify their situation and pretend that it has no effect on other pilot groups as a whole by voting in this bloodsucking, concessionary, bar lowering contract. I'm just saying that people should call it what it is. Stop justifying it. Period. We all know it was a crappy situation. We are facing a crappy situation here too. But this notion that Pinnacle or PSA, (as examples) are somehow isolated incidents and did not change the game is just stupid. They both introduced contract language that didn't exist before in the industry. Call it what it is. Almost EVERY communication we have had on the reasons we need to take concessions give Pinnacle as an example. Do YOU understand that regardless of the "facts" that they in "fact" drove the industry to a new low? It doesn't matter In the end if they were in bankruptcy or not. The end result in the SAME. The "fact" still remains that they set a new standard. That's my point. Nothing more. Call it what it is. If this contract at Xjt passes I'll be the first to admit that we contributed to the CONTINUED downward trend in the industry. You won't find me on here justifying it because I had no other discernible skill other than flying something, I promise you that. In the mean time. Bankrupcy, winding down the airline, losing planes, or whatever reason could not make me vote yes to a concessionary contract. I'm living a concessionary life here at the regionals for a chance of something better. Give me a break.
 
Seggy said:
How are you saying it is BS???????

When a company is in Bankruptcy, management can ask the courts to impose working conditions for those employees who have collectively bargained a contract. Usually the courts won't impose those working conditions unless management and the union meet and try to work out a deal. So, the Endeavor MEC did try to get as good as a deal as they could get, with NO leverage. If a majority of the Endeavor MEC and Pilots voted 'no', the company could have very easily turned to the court and said, they voted 'no' on this deal, we want to impose our own set of rules then.
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I remember American pilots being in a similar situation in bankruptcy. How did they vote again?
 
Bama said:
A "no" vote at pinnacle would not have made their situation any worse. That's all BS and they know it
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Your welcome for us not giving ur management the 1113C to compare u with. Ur TA would have been significantly worse. Have u even read what was in the 1113C? I suggest u educate ur self on it first before u make such a bold statement.
 
DenverPilot8 said:
I remember American pilots being in a similar situation in bankruptcy. How did they vote again?
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The judge with American didn't say tweak a few small things and I'll sign off on rejecting your contract. The judge at pinnacle did. Would have been way worse than what they have now at 9E.
 
DenverPilot8 said:
I remember American pilots being in a similar situation in bankruptcy. How did they vote again?
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You are missing the fact that the APA was talking to Doug Parker at the time and that Wall Street wanted a merger.

Wall Street controls the New York Bankruptcy Courts.

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L-16B said:
The judge with American didn't say tweak a few small things and I'll sign off on rejecting your contract. The judge at pinnacle did. Would have been way worse than what they have now at 9E.
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i said similar situation. There was no guarantee that they would be saved by a merger. Also how much longer are we going to use the excuse of "it could have been worse"? AIRLINE PILOTS ARE MAKING FOOD STAMP WAGES sir. How much worse can it get exactly? at what point do you say "this just isn't worth it"? jesus. It doesn't matter what their situation was. Can we all just be honest about it and call it for what it is? They lowered the the bar for EVERYONE. I know I keep hammering the same point here but it's just baffling that their actions can somehow be justified in the context of making things worse in the regional industry. what's so hard about that?
 
Seggy said:
You are missing the fact that the APA was talking to Doug Parker at the time and that Wall Street wanted a merger.

Wall Street controls the New York Bankruptcy Courts.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Thank you for replying to my longer response earlier. I'll take your actual lack of response as agreement.
 
DenverPilot8 said:
i said similar situation. There was no guarantee that they would be saved by a merger. Also how much longer are we going to use the excuse of "it could have been worse"? AIRLINE PILOTS ARE MAKING FOOD STAMP WAGES sir. How much worse can it get exactly? at what point do you say "this just isn't worth it"? jesus. It doesn't matter what their situation was. Can we all just be honest about it and call it for what it is? They lowered the the bar for EVERYONE. I know I keep hammering the same point here but it's just baffling that their actions can somehow be justified in the context of making things worse in the regional industry. what's so hard about that?
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Not denying that we lowered the bar as we definitely did. I'm just saying that u can't compare it to Americans process. We won and the judge didn't get to throw out our contract. But we won by a razor thin margin and the judge publicly told management to tweak a few small things and boom we would have had the 1113C. I don't think people on here realize how bad it was going to be. 7 year FO upgrade to captain? Start over at year 1 CA pay. That's how bad it was going to be. People like to beat their chest and say vote no! Burn it down and shut the doors! Would voting no have shut down pinnacle? I don't know but if I was management I would have done the tweaks to the 1113C that the judge asked for and overnight you have a pilot group that would cost significantly less than the current concession art contract they have at endeavor now.
 
I was sitting in NMB mediated negotiations in Washington at the time of the 9E deal. Seeing the story unfold from the inside I can unequivocally say that if they had not voted in the TA they got, the 1113c imposed deal would have been much, much worse. Do you guys not remember that America DID toss their contract at one point? How the pilots refused to do pretty much anything because they didn't have any work rules or guidelines to follow and how about 3 days later American Management was back at the table? That wouldn't have worked at a regional because they simply would have shut down so the options they had (if the pilots wanted to keep their jobs) was to either sign a TA or reject the TA and accept the 1113c language.

The only thing I will say is that it would have been much easier for future negotiating committees to tell a company team (at a not bankrupt company) to pound sand when they started using numbers from an 1113c 9E deal instead of a member ratified one.
 
DenverPilot8 said:
Thank you for replying to my longer response earlier. I'll take your actual lack of response as agreement.
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First, look at what @BobDDuck said.

Secondly, you are failing to mention that when Endeavor did raise the bar in February 2011 with our contract, y'all had a PERFECT time to leapfrog us and get a better deal. But, the L-XJT folks were bitching up a storm because of their beloved line bidding, politics with the MEC Chair, and nothing of actual substance securing the future of the L-XJT Pilots was being done.

Thirdly, yes you are in a bad position, but it isn't the Endeavor Pilots fault.
 
Seggy said:
Maybe others are tired of hearing the XJT/ASA guys bitching Endeavor out when their circumstances were ultimately out of their control no matter how they voted.
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I am not disagreeing with you about that. In all honesty, I don't know what their bankruptcy deal would've been and right now we have the luxury of not being in that situation with this TA. I am sure, a lot of us or maybe the vocal minority at XJT is hoping that this would be turned down. Our scope and scheduling section leaves a lot to be desired and truly had hoped that they would've worked on these two sections a little more. What would the future hold for XJT if we vote this down? I don't know but I am sure that uncertainty (although there isn't anything that is certain for XJT if it passes) will play into this TA passing.
 
Seggy said:
First, look at what @BobDDuck said.

Secondly, you are failing to mention that when Endeavor did raise the bar in February 2011 with our contract, y'all had a PERFECT time to leapfrog us and get a better deal. But, the L-XJT folks were bitching up a storm because of their beloved line bidding, politics with the MEC Chair, and nothing of actual substance securing the future of the L-XJT Pilots was being done.

Thirdly, yes you are in a bad position, but it isn't the Endeavor Pilots fault.
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God I wish you could hear how many times Endeavor has been mentioned in this conference call.

Understand that im not pinning the entire industry problems on Endeavor pilots. I recognize that they were in a horrible position. But why dont you understand that they had a huge negative effect for everyone. The argument is ludicrous by saying "we make $10 an hour as airline pilots BUT it could have been worse, we could have been making $8 an hour" it completely misses the point that they voted yes to make $10 an hour (not actual hourly figures obviously).
 
DenverPilot8 said:
God I wish you could hear how many times Endeavor has been mentioned in this conference call.

Understand that im not pinning the entire industry problems on Endeavor pilots. I recognize that they were in a horrible position. But why dont you understand that they had a huge negative effect for everyone. The argument is ludicrous by saying "we make $10 an hour as airline pilots BUT it could have been worse, we could have been making $8 an hour" it completely misses the point that they voted yes to make $10 an hour (not actual hourly figures obviously).
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Aye man, Go grab a beer.


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