Who Should be Able to Fly Airshows?

[cmill]

I still don't understand how we went from Airshows to Air Racing.... The fact they involve airplanes going fast close to the ground is about the ONLY thing they have in common...

I've havent participated in either, so I try not to delve into the standards/practices that are used.

 

[GX]

I still don't understand how we went from Airshows to Air Racing.... The fact they involve airplanes going fast close to the ground is about the ONLY thing they have in common...

It was brought up in post #2 by Seggy to try to tie them together. Need for more oversight, etc.

 

[Seggy]

You sure about that? So far, the preliminary is out. Preliminaries are just that. From the NTSB website:

I am talking about the Reno Air Race. They NTSB did put out a probable cause for that accident. I reserve judgment on the one that happened over the weekend as the investigation is not complete. I'm just asking questions about the general qualifications of the pilots, mechanics that work on these aircraft, and supply of parts for these aircraft

What, exactly, are you really good at it in respect to NTSB reports?

Had we used the preliminary to espouse great wisdom and knowledge about the Colgan incident, you'd have told us we were ignorant.

Having put one together, seeing how the NTSB works, and seeing what is involved in an accident investigation makes one looks at the reports in a different light. At least it has with me. To your second point, that is why you don't rush to judge.

 

[cmill]

No. From reading the NTSB Report on the Reno Air Race they took a look at the maintenance procedures pretty in depth and made a lot of recommendations around that. Can you dispute that fact?

I think it depends on the frame of reference that they're taking. I think trying to push things towards the level of "airline safety" is kind of dumb for airshows, you might as well not have airshows if thats what we're looking for. It would be like applying consumer crash test standards to nascars. That might be a bad point because I think most would say that nascars are probably safer than your honda civic, but thats just because of huge amounts of money involved; Which we all know airshows dont exactly have the dough rolling in.

 

[GX]

I am talking about the Reno Air Race. They NTSB did put out a probable cause for that accident. I reserve judgment on the one that happened over the weekend as the investigation is not complete. I'm just asking questions about the general qualifications of the pilots, mechanics that work on these aircraft, and supply of parts for these aircraft

Link? It's not on the NTSB site. Here's what on the NTSB site .

NTSB Identification:WPR11MA454
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Friday, September 16, 2011 in Reno, NV
Aircraft: NORTH AMERICAN/AERO CLASSICS P-51D, registration: N79111
Injuries: 11 Fatal,66 Serious.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

Having put one together, seeing how the NTSB works, and seeing what is involved in an accident investigation makes one looks at the reports in a different light. At least it has with me. To your second point, that is why you don't rush to judge.

I agree. So you should say less until you know more. And clearly, you are as qualified to talk about this as I am anything Airbus related. Or fighter pilot. Or ACM. Or tactics. Or cloud clearances. Or aircraft capabilities. MikeD

 

[MikeD]

So for those who may know, with regards to the Reno accident, were any policies or procedures governing air racing changed, modified, or added on to; to date?

 

[Seggy]

Here you go GX
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2012/120827.html

 

[darrenf]

I think it depends on the frame of reference that they're taking. I think trying to push things towards the level of "airline safety" is kind of dumb for airshows, you might as well not have airshows if thats what we're looking for. It would be like applying consumer crash test standards to nascars. That might be a bad point because I think most would say that nascars are probably safer than your honda civic, but thats just because of huge amounts of money involved; Which we all know airshows dont exactly have the dough rolling in.

What are these "nascars" you speak of?

 

[Seggy]

I think it depends on the frame of reference that they're taking. I think trying to push things towards the level of "airline safety" is kind of dumb for airshows, you might as well not have airshows if thats what we're looking for. It would be like applying consumer crash test standards to nascars. That might be a bad point because I think most would say that nascars are probably safer than your honda civic, but thats just because of huge amounts of money involved; Which we all know airshows dont exactly have the dough rolling in.

From the NTSB Report...

The nearly 70-year-old airplane had undergone numerous undocumented modifications. The modifications, designed to increase speed, included shortening of the wings, installation of a boil-off cooling system for the engine, increasing the elevator counterweights, modification of the pitch trim system, and changing the incidence of the horizontal and vertical stabilizers.

Although the Federal Aviation Administration required that a flight standards district office be notified in writing of any major changes made to The Galloping Ghost before it could be flown, investigators could find no records that such notifications were made except for the installation of the boil-off cooling system. The undocumented major modifications were identified through wreckage examinations, photographic evidence, and interviews with ground crewmembers

As MikeD said if simple document modifications to a very sophisticated machine were missed, what is being done to prevent this in the future?

 

[cmill]

Question, if you own an airplane and make a modification to it, do you have to document it in the aircraft logbook?

Does documenting the modification somehow make the aircraft safer? Its no secret that those planes are HEAVILY modified. I knew a guy that raced T6s in Reno and he showed me everything that was done to the plane and it blew my mind.

I just dont see the reasoning of applying conventional standards to non conventional operations. Just look at ag ops. If you knew half the stunts that got pulled with those guys it would blow your mind, but how many accidents do you hear about?

 

[GX]

Here you go GX
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2012/120827.html

Thanks. Lots to read. So far though, a G-suit won't help you survive the 17G's Jimmy experienced in that airplane, that day. The onset was too abrupt. MikeD, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[cmill]

As MikeD said if simple document modifications to a very sophisticated machine were missed, what is being done to prevent this in the future?

I suppose enforce the current rules without making new ones?

 

[knot4u]

From the NTSB Report...



As MikeD said if simple document modifications to a very sophisticated machine were missed, what is being done to prevent this in the future?

You won't fly them.

 

[MikeD]

Thanks. Lots to read. So far though, a G-suit won't help you survive the 17G's Jimmy experienced in that airplane, that day. The onset was too abrupt. MikeD, correct me if I'm wrong.

I would think the rapid onset of G would've occurred faster than the G-suit could've countered it. Then one has to factor in the pilot's age, health, etc, into whether there would've been even a chance to physically do anything to counter the onset before it resulted in blackout. It appeared to be near instantaneous in this case.

 

[Brian29]

Shouldn't they have just renewed WITHOUT the increase in premiums if it was a 'hardly statistical significant'?

Because there is no required statistical significance to bring on a lawsuit against the Reno Air Racing Association.

 

[MikeD]

I suppose enforce the current rules without making new ones?

You won't fly them.

Instead of snarky comments, how about having a discussion on the points I brought up about regulatory items.....what's been looked at, any changes proposed or made, and things like that. Its a worthy and interesting discussion topic.

 

[cmill]

What are these "nascars" you speak of?

Ive been to one nascar race and I thought it was dumb as hell. I just dont get all excited over sitting in a stand in 110 degree heat watching cars go in circles while having my ear drum pierced. I supposed you could say the same thing about an air race, but I'm not looking to restrict either.

 

[MikeD]

Ive been to one nascar race and I thought it was dumb as hell. I just dont get all excited over sitting in a stand in 110 degree heat watching cars go in circles while having my ear drum pierced. I supposed you could say the same thing about an air race, but I'm not looking to restrict either.

Truthfully, neither of them really interest me. They're interesting in their own ways, just not enough to make me go out of my way to attend.

 

[cmill]

Instead of snarky comments, how about having a discussion on the points I brought up about regulatory items.....what's been looked at, any changes proposed or made, and things like that. Its a worthy and interesting discussion topic.

I think the point some of us (at least me) are trying to make is that you cant make any real significant changes, without changing the very nature of the event.

 

[cmill]

Truthfully, neither of them really interest me. They're interesting in their own ways, just not enough to make me go out of my way to attend.

I went to the air races once also. I spent the day in the pits drinking free beer and eating free food. I Dont think I watched a single race, except for the guy I knew who was racing the T6.