Who Should be Able to Fly Airshows?

[MikeD]

I think the point some of us (at least me) are trying to make is that you cant make any real significant changes, without changing the very nature of the event.

Which is a fair point. What Im wondering is what was looked at standards/procedures/training/licensing-wise with regards to any regulatory bodies of the sport, whether any changes were discussed or recommended, and whether these were subsequently implemented or rejected; and what they might have been, etc. Interesting discussion stuff like that.

 

[///AMG]

Thanks. Lots to read. So far though, a G-suit won't help you survive the 17G's Jimmy experienced in that airplane, that day. The onset was too abrupt. MikeD, correct me if I'm wrong.

G-onset isn't everything. You can have a very rapid onset of a lot of G's and remain conscious.....there is enough residual fluid in your body, as well as a couple more physiological responses to keep you awake for 3-4 seconds. The scary part about rapid onset with really high G's is that once you run that "battery" dry, you black out immediately, without any warning like grey/blackout. So I would say that doing 10+ G's for a matter of a second or two is not always going to result in loss of consciousness, but that you would have to very rapidly ease the loading after that. I've had quick pulls up to and even through the G limiter that I haven't even noticed until I checked the max G reading post knock-it-off, and have had to review my tapes to see when it actually happened. Haven't over-G'd a jet yet however.....knock on wood

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

I've havent participated in either, so I try not to delve into the standards/practices that are used.

To race at Reno you can start with ZERO air racing experience. Attend the Pylon Racing School, qualify, and now you're a certified air race pilot. (I'm not trying to discredit beginning air racers, it's an intense class.)

Sorry... this is a long one.

This is what you have to do for Aerobatic Competency Exam taken directly out of the ACE Manual:

The oral:
Appendix B
Practical Ground Evaluation Standards

During the Ground Evaluation phase, the ACE must keep in mind that this portion of the evaluation presents an opportunity to review all of the areas of knowledge unique to air show flying. For some pilots, this session may be the only formal review of air show aerodynamics, density altitude effects, physiology, energy, and other specific issues that impact air show professionals that the pilot may have during the year. The ACE must allow sufficient time and attach sufficient importance to this phase so that each applicant will remember the concepts and principles discussed.

I.Air Show Safety Concepts

This first part of the ground checklist concentrates on aerodynamics, density altitude, and physiology. The applicant should have a working knowledge about the relationship of turn and pull out radius to true airspeed and radial “G.” The applicant must know the indicated airspeed for his/her aircraft at which the tightest turn and highest pull out can be made. The applicant must understand the relationship between kinetic energy and potential energy in air show flying. The applicant must know how to determine if a particular maneuver is energy gaining or energy losing under various conditions of density altitude.

The applicant must understand the effect of density altitude upon true airspeed in relation to indicated airspeed, on the performance of aircraft engines, and on the ability to gain and/or maintain energy. The relationship between pull out distances (altitude) and true airspeed should be discussed.

The main point in discussing physiology with each applicant is to impress upon him/her the need to take a good personal physiological inventory before each and every flight. The inclusion of this step in every pre-flight and the use of this personal physiological inventory in planning the flight is critical to safe flying. The ACE should also review the effects of stress, hydration, fatigue, and other human factors.

II.Review of Applicant's Proposed Performance Sequence

The goal in reviewing the entire sequence is to review the sequence design in relationship to the aircraft's capabilities, preservation of energy, adaptability to changes in density altitude and weather, demand on the pilot both physically and mentally, and the flow of the program.

The ACE should proceed through the applicant's written sequence and pause at each maneuver to examine it and discuss it by covering the topics above. The applicant must know the minimum energy state (airspeed and altitude) for various density altitudes which he/she must have as entry parameters for every maneuver in the sequence. This item must be covered for every maneuver in the sequence by the ACE.

The applicant for a Level Three or Level Four waiver will be required to adhere to the maneuver sequence flown during the flight evaluation, as recorded in the information sent to the ICAS office with the completed flight evaluation, in subsequent air show performances. However, variances in the sequence that increase the safety of the performance by compensating for factors such as density altitude, wind and terrain considerations shall be allowed, providing that no new maneuvers that have not been demonstrated are included in such modifications. Maneuvers may be deleted from the sequence.

III. Special Considerations

The ACE should refer to the appropriate checklist item if the applicant is flying a specialty act. A thorough discussion of each item is required. In certain situations, the ACE may have related but not personal experience in a specialty or new act. This is a good chance to ask the applicant to explain the unique facets and safety requirements of his or her specialty or plans for a new air show act. The ACE may also find it helpful to contact another ACE who specializes in a related field such as comedy, transfers or wingwalking. In these situations, the chairman of the ACE Committee will be advised before recommendations are forwarded to the FAA or Transport Canada.

IV. Emergency Procedures

An important issue that the ACE should bear in mind when reviewing emergencies is the decreasing number of options the pilot has in any given emergency as the total energy level (airspeed and altitude) of the aircraft decreases. Special care should be taken by the ACE to include specialty act circumstances into the discussion of each emergency. Examples include such emergencies as engine failure during a formation maneuver or during a wing walk act. Once again, the idea here is to take the time to think about these possible emergencies so that the pilot can recall his or her plan when and if the circumstances arise.

V.Ground Evaluation Checklist

A.[ ]Review of applicant's experience
1.[ ]Certificate check (license, medical, BFR, and LOA)
2.[ ]Air Show Documentation
3.[ ]Total flying time and time in type
4.[ ] Aerobatic time
a. [ ]total
b. [ ] in type
B.[ ]The applicant will exhibit appropriate knowledge on the following: personal motivation, philosophy, and
reasons for obtaining an aerobatic competency card.
C. [ ]Understanding of past history of air show accidents and common causes.
D.[ ]Aerodynamics as it relates to the applicants sequence (turn performance and energy management).
1.[ ]Relationship between true airspeed and; lift, drag, turn rate, and turn radius
2.[ ]Relationship between indicated and true airspeed
3.[ ]Technique for minimum altitude vertical recovery
4.[ ]Limitations of pilot’s aircraft (VN or VG diagram)
5.[ ]Understanding of control of induced drag and how it can be controlled from the cockpit
6.[ ]Capabilities of pilot's specific aircraft
a.[ ]wing loading
b.[ ]power to weight
c.[ ]G limits
d.[ ]Vne, Vso
e.[ ]special modifications
f.[ ]structural integrity, fatigue
g.[ ]use of pyro
7.[ ] Review applicants specific sequence
a.[ ] logic of sequence/energy management
b.[ ] energy losing maneuvers
c.[ ]special adjustments for high density altitude
d.[ ]blown maneuver or sequence interruption
8.[ ] Out of control flight (planned or unplanned)
10.[ ]Night time considerations
E.[ ]Operation at High Density Altitude
1.[ ] Use of density altitude chart
2.[ ]Increased true airspeed and pull-out performance (turn radius increases with square of TAS)
3.[ ]Engine performance degradation
4.[ ]Relationship between indicated and true airspeed
5.[ ]Ability to maintain energy
6. [ ]Sequence modifications necessary to maintain energy
F. [ ]Physiological Effects/Human Factors in the Air Show Environment
1.[ ] Temperature effects (high and low)
2.[ ] Hydration
3.[ ]Stress
4.[ ] G tolerance
a.[ ] insidious characteristics of loss of G tolerance
b.[ ] affected greatly by physical condition
5.[ ] Density altitude effects on the body
G.[ ]Weather Considerations
1.[ ]Wind velocity and direction
2.[ ]Ceiling and visibility
3.[ ] Rain on laminar wings (gliders, Long EZ, etc.)
4.[ ]Prepared and practiced low show
H.[ ] Air Show Responsibilities
1.[ ] Responsibilities at air show briefing
2.[ ]Federal Aviation Regulations/Canadian Aviation Regulations that apply to aerobatics
and air shows
3.[ ]Required certification for air shows
4.[ ] Show line vs. crowd line
a.[ ] artificial show lines
b.[ ] water shows
c.[ ] obstacles
5.[ ] Ground operations (start & taxi)
I.[ ] Emergencies
1.[ ] Structural failure and aircraft control
2.[ ] Engine failure
3.[ ] Fire
4.[ ]Communications failure
5.[ ] Disorientation
6.[ ]Bail out and parachute considerations

VI.Special Act Considerations
(Must be reviewed for notation on competency card)

A.[ ]Formation team acts
1.[ ] Sequence Design
a.[ ]Optimizing aircraft capability
b.[ ]Adjustments for weather (Low show, density altitude, etc.)
c.[ ]Dissimilar aircraft
d.[ ]Timing for opposing maneuvers
2.[ ] Preflight briefing
3.[ ]Lead Pilot techniques and responsibilities
a.[ ]Power requirements for wingmen
4.[ ] Wingmen responsibilities
5.[ ] Basic formation signals
6.[ ] Use of radio
a.[ ]To initiate maneuvers
b.[ ]Deconfliction
c.[ ]Acknowledgements
7.[ ]Emergency procedures
a.[ ]Broken formation; Blown maneuver procedures and “outs”
b.[ ]Radio calls for emergencies
c.[ ]Aborted take off
d.[ ]“Lost sight” procedure
e.[ ]Radio, engine, and other equipment failures; team procedure
8.[ ]Postflight briefing
B.[ ]Wingwalking act
1.[ ] Walking or riding at takeoff, takeoff aborts
2.[ ] Safety restraints
3.[ ]Temperature, wind and rain
4.[ ] Aircraft CG changes
5.[ ] Drag considerations and energy
6.[ ]Emergency procedures
The flight:
Appendix C
Practical Flight Evaluation Standards

A.General

1. If an applicant believes that he or she may have difficulty executing one or more of the flight maneuvers mandated, it is strongly recommended that the applicant postpone or cancel the evaluation until he or she has complete mastery of the required maneuvers.

1. The final decision on whether or not an applicant is capable of performing any particular maneuver is the applicant’s.

1. Certain maneuvers may not be appropriate for certain aircraft. The ACE and the applicant will jointly decide if specific maneuvers should be adjusted or eliminated from the evaluation process if the applicant is flying a plane that cannot or should not be used to fly those maneuvers. For example, it is understood that only planes with inverted fuel and oil systems will fly the two 180 degree inverted turns. Under no circumstances should an aircraft be used to perform maneuvers not approved for that aircraft.

1. The maneuvers specified in the Practical Flight Evaluation Standards for air show pilots may change as ICAS gains experience with the Standards and adjusts them over time. The most up to date schedule of maneuvers will always be available from ICAS headquarters.

1. At a minimum, the maneuvers explained in this document are to be successfully demonstrated prior to the applicant demonstrating his or her air show sequence. They are to be performed at a safe altitude, may be flown separately or in a sequence, and may be completed in the same flight, or in a separate flight from the air show sequence, at the discretion of the applicant and evaluator. These maneuvers are used to demonstrate the applicant's ability to perform basic aerobatic maneuvers safely before demonstrating his or her ability to perform a sequence of maneuvers at low altitude in a designated area.

1. Reverse half cuban eights and Split S-type maneuvers can be dangerous maneuvers. Though any maneuver specified in these standards can also be dangerous, ICAS and the ACE Committee recommend particular caution and, if necessary, a bit more altitude than normal when a new pilot or a pilot unknown to the ACE is performing these particular maneuvers.

1. In order to provide the ACE with a basis for evaluating a maneuver from the ground, ICAS has given altitude and heading guidelines to assist the ACE in the evaluation process. The altitude and heading guidelines are provided for reference only. These values are accepted by the International Aerobatic Club (IAC) as the minimum deviation visible by a judge evaluating from the ground. Please use these values as a guide only. ICAS expects the ACE to use his/her best judgment in evaluating a performance. If there is any question as to the safety of any maneuver or sequence presented by an applicant, the pilot should fail the evaluation.

1. The aircraft listed and the categories in which they fall are general only. Please use your best judgment in regards to the category that the plane is evaluated in. For example: For High Performance Sport Aerobatics, the Yak is listed. It can be said that the Yak 55 series can be included in this category, but the Yak 52 should most likely be evaluated in the Low Performance Sport Aerobatics section.

1. To be eligible for a waiver with a formation team, each member of that team must also obtain or possess a solo authorization in the aircraft and at the level sought for the formation.

High Performance Sport Aerobatics

Level 4 (800 feet AGL Minimum)
Level 3 (500 feet AGL Minimum)

Aircraft in this category include, but are not limited to: Extra, CAP, Sukhoi, Yak (sport aerobatic models), Edge, Zlin, Pitts, and Eagle.

I. Area of Operation: Flight Evaluation Maneuvers

1. Task: Inverted flight **

To determine that the applicant can half-roll from upright to inverted flight, fly distance of the demonstration area, and half-roll back to upright flight while maintaining control and full situational awareness.

1. Exhibit knowledge of the elements of inverted flight.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight and level attitude at the demonstration altitude before the roll to inverted, making necessary wind corrections to maintain a constant flight path.
4. Roll to inverted smoothly and in a controlled fashion. Stopping at wings level +/- 10 degrees.
5. Maintains flight path +/- 10 degrees while inverted.
6. Maintains altitude
7. Roll back to upright flight in a smooth and controlled fashion, maintaining flight path +/- 10 degrees.
8. Stop roll upright, wings level +/- 10 degrees at same altitude as at start of maneuver.

1. Task: Two Inverted 180 degree turns **

To determine that the applicant can complete two 180-degree inverted turn while maintaining control and full situational awareness.

1. Exhibit knowledge of the elements of inverted turns.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight and level inverted flight path.
4. Roll smoothly and in a controlled fashion to the intended bank angle +/- 5 degrees to no less than 45 degrees.
5. Execute a single 180-degree turn and, when completed, initiate and execute a second 180-degree turn in the opposite direction.
6. Maintain constant altitude +100/-0 feet and consistent bank angle +/- 10 degrees throughout the entire maneuver.
7. When the second 180-degree turn is completed, roll out on initial flight path heading +/- 20 degrees.
8. Be able to safely and promptly abort the figure if needed or instructed to by ACE.

C.Task: Three-turn upright spin. **

To determine that the applicant can complete three (3) full rotations in a fully developed upright
spin while maintaining control and full situational awareness. This maneuver is to be performed at a safe altitude and is not required to be performed at the evaluation altitude.

1. Exhibit knowledge of the elements of upright spins in demonstration aircraft type. Including, but not limited to normal, flat, accelerated, power on and power off.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Enter the demonstration area on a constant heading.
4. While holding the established heading, fully stall aircraft and establish a spin in a predetermined direction
5. Hold the aircraft in the spin for three full rotations.
6. Stop the rotation of the spin in a prompt and timely manner on the same heading as entered +/- 30 degrees in roll axis.
7. Recover aircraft from vertical flight (initial recovery attitude) back to a straight and level flight on the same heading as entered +/- 10 degrees.
8. Be able to safely and promptly abort the figure if needed or instructed by ACE.

D. Task: Inverted stall/spin recognition and recovery

To determine that the applicant exhibits knowledge of the elements related to inverted slow flight and inverted stall/spin recognition and recovery.

1. Exhibit knowledge of flight situations where unintentional inverted stalls/spins may occur.
2. Exhibit knowledge of the technique used to recognize and recover from unintentional inverted stall/spins.
3. Exhibit knowledge of the recommended inverted stall/spin recovery procedure for the airplane being used for the evaluation.

1. Task: Three consecutive slow rolls

To determine that the applicant can complete three (3) consecutive rolls while maintaining heading, altitude and full situational awareness.

1. Exhibit knowledge of the elements of multiple rolls.

1. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
2. Establish a straight and level attitude with a flight path parallel to the demonstration area.
3. Roll smoothly and in a controlled fashion to the left or right.
4. Maintain a constant rate of roll throughout all three (3) rolls.
5. Maintain heading during all three (3) rolls +/- 10 degrees.
6. Maintain altitude during all three (3) rolls.
7. Finish rolls in a wings level attitude +/- 10 degrees.
8. Finish rolls on same heading as entry +/- 10 degrees.
9. Be able to abort the figure at any time if needed or instructed by ACE.

F.Task: Four-Point Roll

To determine that the applicant possesses advanced rolling abilities and inverted orientation while maintaining the showline and baseline altitude.

1. Exhibit knowledge of point rolls.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight flight path parallel with the demonstration area.
4. Roll smoothly and in a controlled fashion to each point.
5. Stop each segment of the roll +/- 10 degrees.
6. Maintain heading during the maneuver +/- 10 degrees.
7. Complete the maneuver at an altitude at or above the baseline altitude.
8. Finish roll in a wings level attitude +/- 10 degrees.
9. Finish roll on same heading as entry +/-10 degrees.
10. Be able to abort this figure at any time if needed or instructed by ACE.

G.Task: Inside Loop

To determine that the applicant can complete a full inside loop.

1. Exhibit the knowledge of the elements of the inside loop.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. From an established flight path, parallel to the demonstration area initiate the inside loop.
4. Maintain roll and pitch control during loop.
5. Maintain speed control over the top of the loop.
6. Exit the loop on the same flight path as entry +/- 10 degrees.
7. Exit the loop at an altitude at or above the baseline altitude.
8. Be able to safely abort the loop at any time if needed or asked to by ACE.

H.Task: Hammerhead Turn

To determine that the applicant can demonstrate a hammerhead turn with reference to the ground, while maintaining directional control and altitude awareness.

1. Exhibit the knowledge of the elements of hammerhead turns, to include vertical flight up and down, pivot points, altitude loss and ground closure rates.
2. Consider wind conditions (up wind or down wind pivot), obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight and level flight path at the demonstration altitude parallel to the demonstration area.
4. Pull smoothly in a controlled fashion to a vertical up flight attitude.
5. Pivot/turn at the correct speed in a controlled manner to produce a turn radius that is no greater than one and one-half times the wing span of the demonstration aircraft. The pitch and roll of the aircraft should not change more than 20 degrees. In any direction during the pivot/turn in a zero wind condition.
6. Establish vertical down flight attitude. Length of line should not be a factor as long as level upright flight is established at or above the initial starting altitude.
7. Return to initial start altitude or above on the reciprocal heading as first entered +/- 10 degrees.
8. Be able to abort the figure at any time if needed or instructed by ACE.

I. Task: Reverse half cuban eight

To determine that the applicant can complete a half reverse cuban eight by: establishing an upline of approximately 45 degrees, half roll to inverted, transition to approximately five-eighths of a loop returning to upright and level flight in the opposite direction from the entry.

1. Exhibit the knowledge of the elements of the half reverse cuban eight. Specifically, altitude and pitch awareness during the inverted portion of this figure.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight and level flight path parallel to the demonstration area.
4. Pull to a flight path of approximately 45 degrees or whatever attitude is needed to gain required altitude to complete this maneuver.
5. Roll to the inverted flight attitude while maintaining the original flight path.
6. Transition smoothly to a downward inside approximately five-eighths of a loop.
7. Return to upright level flight in the opposite direction of the entry +/-10 degrees and +/- 100 feet altitude from entry altitude.
8. Be able to abort this figure at any time if needed or as instructed by the ACE.

J.Task: Half Cuban Eight

To determine that the applicant can complete a half cuban eight: Fly approximately five-eighths of a loop to an inverted
downline of approximately 45 degrees. Half roll the aircraft to upright. Recover in straight and level upright flight parallel
to the demonstration area, while maintaining full situational awareness in reference to the ground.

1. Exhibit the knowledge of the elements of the half cuban eight.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight and level flight path parallel to the demonstration area.
4. Fly approximately five-eighths of a loop in a smooth and controlled fashion to an inverted downline of approximately 45 degrees.
5. Half roll to upright flight on a downline.
6. Return to upright level flight at same or greater altitude in the opposite direction from entry +/- 10 degrees.
7. Be able to abort this figure at any time needed or instructed by ACE.

K.Task: Snap Roll

To determine that the applicant can complete one full inside snap roll maintaining heading and altitude while maintaining full situational awareness to the ground.

1. Exhibit knowledge of the elements of positive “G” snap rolls. Discussion should include aircraft limitation, Maximum maneuver speed vs. Maximum snap roll speeds and their differences.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight and level flight path parallel to the demonstration area.
4. Execute one full revolution, positive snap roll.
5. Stop the roll upright and in level flight on same heading +/- 10 degrees and altitude +100/-0 feet.
6. Be able to abort the figure at any time needed or instructed by ACE.

Note: Any of the tasks listed above with the notation ** indicates that if the aircraft being used for the evaluation can not perform a specific maneuver due to limited inverted fuel or oil supply, or is placarded against flying these maneuvers may modify or not perform the maneuver if agreed to by the evaluating ACE.

II. Area of Operation: Cross Wind Correction

1. Task: Cross wind correction.

To determine that the applicant can compensate for cross wind conditions by maneuvering the aircraft in a fashion that will keep the aircraft from moving down wind. Many techniques will work for this purpose, leaving quite a bit of subjectivity and judgement on the ACE’s evaluation. Therefore, the sole task is to verify that the pilot has the control and situational awareness needed to keep the aircraft from passing inside a given “deadline”.

The following maneuver is designed to demonstrate the pilot’s ability to “move” the aircraft from left to right or visa versa. The amount of sideways movement will vary depending on the size of the loop, time in the loop, and the pilots ability to input corrections for wind drift.

1. Exhibit knowledge of the elements of cross wind correcting. Specifically, being able to keep the aircraft over the same path along the demonstration area correcting for crosswind, and also be able to move aircraft to the up wind direction at will.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. While flying the aircraft directly towards the ACE at the demonstration altitude perform one inside loop over a pre-determined ground point.
4. The applicant should be able to “move” the aircraft “up-wind” to the left or right by no less than 100 feet. (The use of runway lights normally spaced 200 feet is a good reference for the ACE to use.)
5. Refer to Task F: Inside Loop in Section I. If sufficient cross wind exists, the applicant may perform the loop in a direction that would expose his/her aircraft to a 90-degree cross wind. If this method is used, the applicant will be expected to keep his/her aircraft over the pre-determined ground point during the entire loop. The ACE may want to refer to the enclosed Crosswind Component Charts for wind vs. distance drift.

III. Area of Operation: Full aerobatic sequence

1. Task: Aerobatic sequence demonstration

To determine that the applicant can complete a full aerobatic demonstration. During the flight the pilot shall be able to complete the following:

1. Maintain a safe altitude at all times as appropriate for the level being applied for.
2. Maintain directional control of his/her aircraft at all times during the aerobatic demonstration. This is to include take off and landings.
3. Maintain an energy level that is appropriate for the given sequence and maneuvers being demonstrated.
4. Compensate for winds during the sequence so as to remain over the primary demonstration area, remaining no less than 500 feet in front of the ACE, and keeping the sequence balanced and centered.
5. Be able to abort or interrupt the sequence at any time if needed or asked to by the ACE. After interruption, being able to return to the aerobatic area and continue with the remainder of the sequence without the flow and safety being compromised.
6. All maneuvers shall be performed to the same standard as set in the proceeding “tasks.”

Level 2 (250 feet AGL minimum)
Level 1 (Unrestricted)

The following Flight Evaluation Maneuvers are in addition to or modified versions of the maneuvers from High Performance Sport Aerobatic Level 3 and 4 PTS. If the ACE has no experience with the applicant or has reason to believe that the applicant has not yet performed the Level 3 and Level 4 mandated maneuvers, the ACE may, at his or her discretion, require the applicant to perform some of all of the Level 3 and 4 maneuvers before the applicant demonstrates the Level 2/Level 1 mandated maneuvers. It will be expected that the applicant will perform the tasks at the appropriate altitude for the level being applied for.

1. Area of Operation: Flight Evaluation Maneuvers

1. Task: Inverted spin. Minimum of one turn.**

To determine that the applicant can recognize, enter and recover from an inverted spin. This maneuver is to be performed at a safe altitude and is not required to be performed at the evaluation altitude.

1. Exhibit the knowledge of the elements of inverted spins in the demonstration aircraft. Including but not limited to normal, flat, accelerated, power on and power off.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. While holding the established heading, fully stall the aircraft, establish an inverted spin in a predetermined direction.
4. Hold the aircraft in the spin for at least one full rotation.
5. Stop the rotation in a prompt and timely manner.
6. Recover the aircraft from vertical flight (initial recovery attitude) back to straight and level flight in a direction that is not divergent with the ACE or the demonstration line.
7. Be able to safely and promptly abort the figure if needed or instructed by ACE.

B. Task: Vertical Roll, Up & Down (hammerhead or humpty). **

To determine that the applicant can demonstrate a hammerhead turn or humpty bump with a full vertical roll up and a full vertical roll down (left or right) with reference to the ground, while maintaining directional control and altitude awareness.

1. Exhibit the knowledge of the elements of the vertical roll, both up and down to include pivot and pull points, altitude loss and ground closure rates.
2. Consider wind conditions (up wind or down wind pivot, pull, and rolls into or down wind) obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight and level flight path at the demonstration altitude parallel to demonstration area. Start at an altitude that will allow the figure to be flown and recovered by an altitude no lower than the level being applied for.
4. Pull smoothly in a controlled fashion to a vertical up line, once established, one full vertical roll (360 degrees, +/- 10 degrees) will be added.
5. Pivot/turn or pull at the correct airspeed in a controlled manner to reverse direction of flight to the vertical down attitude. Once established, one full vertical roll (360 degrees, +/- 10 degrees) will be added.
6. Return to upright and level flight no lower than the waiver level being applied for and heading +/- 10 degrees from the demonstration area.
7. Be able to abort this figure at any time or as instructed by the ACE.

C.Task: Inside Snap Rolls on a Descending Line

To determine that the applicant can complete a multiple snap roll on a descending line of no less than 45 degrees. At least two full rotations should be demonstrated, with a recovery on the same axis as entered.

1. Exhibit the knowledge of multiple snap rolls, to include over and under snapped rolls, deep snaps, accelerated snaps, “tumbled” snaps and recovery in an unusual attitude. Also, displacement of aircraft during snap rolls and snapping towards the crowd line. The discussion should also include aircraft limitation, maximum maneuver speed vs. maximum snap roll speeds and how they differ.
2. Consider wind conditions (snapping into or down wind), obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight and level flight path parallel to the demonstration area. Enter a 45-degree or steeper descending line. A half cuban eight works well for this.
4. Execute one series of multiple snap rolls (minimum of two)
5. Snaps should be “clean” and well defined. Rotation should be stopped accurately and without hesitation. Wings should return to level +/-20 degrees. The snaps must be completed in the upright position.
6. Be able to abort the figure at any time needed or as instructed by the ACE.

D. Task: Torque Roll**

To determine that the applicant can complete a torque roll while maintaining full situational awareness to the ground.

1. Exhibit the knowledge of elements of tail slides and torque rolls.
2. Consider the wind conditions, possible drift of this maneuver, any obstructions and emergency procedures. Attention should be given to the possible altitude gain vs. the possible altitude loss.
3. Establish a straight and level flight path parallel to the demonstration area. Pull to a vertical flight attitude. At this point it is up to the pilot and the ACE weather to perform a vertical roll into a torque or to let the engine torque produce the roll of the aircraft.
4. Once forward airspeed has stopped and the aircraft is rolling from the torque of the engine and the aircraft is in a tail slide, the pilot must recover to the vertical down attitude and resume normal flight parallel to the demonstration area.
5. Be able to safely abort the torque roll at any time if needed or asked to by the ACE.

E. Task: Gyroscopic Maneuvers

To determine that the applicant can safely perform maneuvers that are driven by the gyroscopic effect of the aircraft engine, propeller and maximum control surface deflection. The pilot applicant may choose three different “tumbles” of his/her choice and demonstrate them for the ACE. The applicant must explain in detail the tumbles he/she will fly and the direction of entry and exit of each maneuver before the evaluation.

1. Exhibit the knowledge of the elements of gyroscopic figures. Special attention should be paid to altitude awareness during the maneuver and ground closure rates. Also, at what point the aircraft falls from gyroscopic effect and transitions to spin or no motion (hanging and falling).
2. Consider the wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish the required flight path needed to perform the given “tumble” at the required safe altitude.
4. Execute the “tumble” and recover the aircraft to a normal upright attitude in a reasonable amount of time. At no time may the recovery allow the aircraft to fly towards the ACE or demonstration area.
5. Be able to abort the maneuver at any time needed or as instructed by the ACE.

II. Area of Operation: Cross Wind Correction

1. Task: Cross wind correction.

To determine that the applicant can compensate for cross wind conditions by maneuvering the aircraft in a fashion that will keep the aircraft from moving down wind. Many techniques will work for this purpose leaving quite a bit of subjectivity and judgment on the ACE’s evaluation. Therefore, the sole task is to verify that the pilot has the control and situational awareness needed to keep the aircraft from passing inside a given “deadline”.

The following maneuver is designed to demonstrate the pilot’s ability to “move” the aircraft from left to right or visa versa. The amount of sideways movement will vary depending on the size of the loop, time in the loop, and the pilots ability to input corrections for wind drift.

1. Exhibit knowledge of the elements of cross wind correcting. Specifically, being able to keep the aircraft over the same path along the demonstration area correcting for crosswind, and also being able to move aircraft to the up wind direction at will.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. While flying the aircraft directly towards the ACE at the demonstration altitude perform one inside loop over a pre-determined ground point.
4. The applicant should be able to “move” the aircraft “up-wind” to the left or right by no less than 100 feet. (The use of runway lights normally spaced 200 feet is a good reference for the ACE to use.)

If sufficient cross wind exists, the applicant may perform the loop in a direction that would expose his/her aircraft to a 90-degree cross wind. If this method is used, the applicant will be expected to keep his/her aircraft over the pre-determined ground point during the entire loop. The ACE may want to refer to the enclosed Crosswind Component Charts for wind vs. distance drift.

III. Area of Operation: Full aerobatic sequence

1. Task: Aerobatic sequence demonstration

To determine that the applicant can complete a full aerobatic demonstration. During the flight the pilot shall be able to complete the following:

1. Maintain a safe altitude at all times as appropriate for the level being applied for.
2. Maintain directional control of his/her aircraft at all times during the aerobatic demonstration. This is to include take off and landings.
3. Maintain an energy level that is appropriate for the given sequence and maneuvers being demonstrated.
4. Compensate for winds during the sequence so as to remain over the primary demonstration area, remaining no less than 500 feet in front of the ACE, and keeping the sequence balanced and centered.
5. Be able to abort or interrupt the sequence at any time if needed or asked to by the ACE. After interruption, being able to return to the aerobatic area and continue with the remainder of the sequence with out the flow and safety being compromised.
6. All maneuvers shall be performed to the same standard as set in the proceeding “tasks.”

Warbird Aerobatics

Level 4 (800 feet AGL minimum)
Level 3 (500 feet AGL minimum)
Level 2 (250 feet AGL minimum)
Level 1 (Unrestricted)

(Aircraft in this category include, but are not limited to, military and ex-military aircraft with reciprocating and turbine engines that have 600 horsepower or more and retractable gear.)

I.Area of Operation: Flight Evaluation Maneuvers

1. Task: Flat Pass

To determine that the applicant can define and track the appropriate showline (1000 feet or 1500 feet, depending on the aircraft), and establish a reference to the appropriate baseline altitude.

1. Show knowledge of showline orientation and baseline altitude minimums.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight flight path parallel with the demonstration area and correct for wind conditions if required.
4. Fly a smooth and level pass at the baseline altitude +/- 50 feet.

1. Task: 180 degree repositioning turn

To determine that the applicant can execute a 180 degree repositioning turn.

1. Show knowledge of the dynamics of repositioning turns.
2. Demonstrate the flight path and judgment required to reposition the aircraft from a maneuvering pass and realign on the reciprocal showline for the next pass.
3. Direct the flight path so as not to direct energy toward the crowd line.
4. Be able to abort the maneuver at any time needed or as instructed by the ACE.

1. Task: Half rolls

To determine that the applicant can execute a half roll from upright to inverted, pause, and then roll back upright in the opposite direction of the original roll. Requires applicant to exhibit orientation and recognition of inverted flight, hold inverted flight, and demonstrate the ability to roll in the opposite direction to reestablish flight in the upright position. This maneuver may be accomplished at a level altitude or a parabolic arc depending on the inverted flight limitations of the aircraft being utilized.

1. Exhibit knowledge of the elements of rolling maneuvers.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish necessary wind corrections to maintain a constant flight path before rolling to the inverted.
4. Roll to inverted smoothly and in a controlled fashion, stopping at wings level +/- 10 degrees.
5. Maintains flight path +/- 10 degrees while inverted.
6. Roll back to upright flight in a smooth and controlled fashion, maintaining flight path +/- 10 degrees.
7. Stop roll upright, wings level +/- 10 degrees and at an altitude at or above the baseline altitude.
8. Be able to abort the maneuver at any time needed or as instructed by the ACE.

1. Task: Aileron roll (left)

To determine that the applicant can roll the aircraft without losing altitude and maintain a constant heading while executing a 360-degree aileron roll.

1. Exhibit knowledge of aileron rolls.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight flight path parallel with the demonstration area.
4. Roll smoothly and in a controlled fashion to the left.
5. Maintain a constant rate of roll throughout the roll.
6. Maintain heading during the roll +/- 10 degrees.
7. Complete the roll at an altitude at or above the baseline altitude.
8. Finish roll in a wings level attitude +/- 10 degrees.
9. Finish roll on same heading as entry +/-10 degrees.
10. Be able to abort this figure at any time if needed or instructed by ACE.

1. Task: Aileron Roll (right)

To determine that the applicant can roll the aircraft equally well in both directions.

1. Exhibit knowledge of aileron rolls.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight flight path parallel with the demonstration area.
4. Roll smoothly and in a controlled fashion to the right.
5. Maintain a constant rate of roll through out the roll.
6. Maintain heading during the roll +/- 10 degrees.
7. Complete the roll at an altitude at or above the baseline altitude.
8. Finish roll in a wings level attitude +/- 10 degrees.
9. Finish roll on same heading as entry +/-10 degrees.
10. Be able to abort this figure at any time if needed or instructed by ACE.

Note: An aerobatic competency card with the notation,”Rolls Only” may be issued to any applicant who
satisfactorily demonstrates these first five maneuvers: the flat pass, the 180 degree repositioning turn, the half roll
to inverted and half roll back upright, the left aileron roll and the right aileron roll.

1. Task: Point Roll (four- or eight-point)

To determine that the applicant possesses advanced rolling abilities and inverted orientation while maintaining the showline and baseline altitude.

1. Exhibit knowledge of point rolls.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight flight path parallel with the demonstration area.
4. Roll smoothly and in a controlled fashion to each point.
5. Stop each segment of the roll +/- 10 degrees.
6. Maintain heading during the maneuver +/- 10 degrees.
7. Complete the maneuver at an altitude at or above the baseline altitude.
8. Finish roll in a wings level attitude +/- 10 degrees.
9. Finish roll on same heading as entry +/-10 degrees.
10. Be able to abort this figure at any time if needed or instructed by ACE.

1. Task: Half Cuban Eight

To determine that the applicant can complete a half cuban eight: Fly approximately five-eighths of a loop to an inverted downline of approximately 45 degrees. Half roll the aircraft to upright. Recover in upright flight parallel to the demonstration area, while maintaining full situational awareness in reference to the ground.

1.Exhibit the knowledge of the elements of the half cuban eight.
2.Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight and level flight path parallel to the demonstration area.
4. Fly approximately five-eighths of a loop in a smooth and controlled fashion to an inverted downline of
approximately 45 degrees.
5. Half roll to upright flight on a downline.
6. Return to upright level flight at same or greater altitude in the opposite direction from entry +/- 10 degrees.
7.Be able to abort this figure at any time needed or instructed by the ACE.

1. Task: Inside Loop

To demonstrate that the applicant has the ability to utilize the vertical while maintaining the showline correcting for wind drift and reestablish level flight upon completion of the maneuver at the baseline altitude.

1. Exhibit the knowledge of the elements of the inside loop.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. From an established flight path, parallel to the demonstration area initiate the inside loop.
4. Maintain roll and pitch control during loop.
5. Maintain speed control over the top of the loop.
6. Exit the loop on the same flight path as entry +/-10 degrees.
7. Exit the loop at an altitude at or above the baseline altitude.
8. Be able to safely abort the loop at any time if needed or asked to by ACE.

II. Area of Operation: Cross Wind Correction

1. Task: Cross wind correction.

To determine that the applicant can compensate for cross wind conditions by maneuvering the aircraft in a fashion that will keep the aircraft from moving down wind. Many techniques will work for this purpose leaving quite a bit of subjectivity and judgment on the ACE’s evaluation. Therefore, the sole task is to verify that the pilot has the control and situational awareness needed to keep the aircraft from passing inside a given “dead line”.

The following maneuver is designed to demonstrate the pilot’s ability to “move” the aircraft from left to right or visa versa. The amount of sideways movement will vary depending on the size of the loop, time in the loop, and the pilots ability to input corrections for wind drift.

1. Exhibit knowledge of the elements of cross wind correcting. Specifically, being able to keep the aircraft over the same path along the demonstration area correcting for crosswind, and also being able to move aircraft to the up wind direction at will.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. While flying the aircraft directly towards the ACE at the demonstration altitude perform one inside loop over a pre-determined ground point.
4. The applicant should be able to “move” the aircraft “up-wind” to the left or right by no less than 100 feet. (The use of runway lights normally spaced 200 feet is a good reference for the ACE to use.)
5. Refer to Task H: Inside Loop in Section I.

If sufficient cross wind exists, the applicant may perform the loop in a direction that would expose his/her aircraft to a 90-degree cross wind. If this method is used, the applicant will be expected to keep his/her aircraft over the pre-determined ground point during the entire loop. The ACE may want to refer to the enclosed Crosswind Component Charts for wind vs. distance drift.

III. Area of Operation: Full aerobatic sequence

1. Task: Aerobatic sequence demonstration

To determine that the applicant can complete a full aerobatic demonstration. During the flight the pilot shall be able to complete the following:

1. Maintain a safe altitude at all times as appropriate for the level being applied for.
2. Maintain directional control of his/her aircraft at all times during the aerobatic demonstration. This is to include take off and landings.
3. Maintain an energy level that is appropriate for the given sequence and maneuvers being demonstrated.
4. Compensate for winds during the sequence so as to remain over the primary demonstration area, remaining no less than 1,000 feet in front of the ACE, and keeping the sequence balanced and centered.
5. Be able to abort or interrupt the sequence at any time if needed or asked to by the ACE. After interruption, being able to return to the aerobatic area and continue with the remainder of the sequence with out the flow and safety being compromised.
6. All maneuvers shall be performed to the same standards as set forth in the proceeding “tasks.”

Formation Aerobatic Teams

All altitudes

I.Area of Operation: Flight Evaluation Maneuvers

1. Task: Flat pass in formation

To determine if the applicant for lead pilot can lead the formation and set up a flat pass, parallel to the demonstration area. To determine if the applicant for wing pilot can maintain station.

1. Exhibit knowledge of the basics of formation flight as lead pilot and/or wing pilot.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Establish a straight and level flight path parallel to the showline.
4. Wing pilots must maintain station within one wingspan outside of normal position.
5. Applicant must demonstrate in each position -- lead or wing -- for which he/she has applied.
6. Applicants must be able to make formation changes, i.e. from left to right wing or from fingertip to diamond formation.
7. Positioning turns should be made smoothly and the rollout should be on a heading and track to parallel the showline.

B. Task: Wingovers, left and right

To determine if the applicant for lead pilot can smoothly set up and fly left and right wingovers (90 degrees of bank), and if wing pilots can maintain station during constantly changing energy situations.

1. Exhibit knowledge of energy requirements (airspeed and altitude) for wingovers to the left and right.
2. Consider wind conditions, obstructions and emergency procedures.
3. Fly symmetrical wingovers to the left and right with 90 degrees of bank +/- 10 degrees.
4. Wing pilot(s) must be able to maintain station within one wingspan (wide) of normal position.
5. Be able to safely abort the maneuver if needed or if instructed to by the ACE.
6. Applicants must demonstrate this maneuver for each position, wing or lead.

Note: These maneuvers may be performed as part of an air show sequence demonstration.

C. Task: Loop or Barrel Roll

To determine if lead and wing pilots can perform a loop or barrel roll, maintaining situational awareness and formation integrity. (Either loop or roll, at discretion of applicants, and either is a minimum for issuance of Statement of Aerobatic Competency card with “Formation” endorsement.)

1. Exhibit knowledge of formation looping maneuvers: energy/altitude requirements for lead and wing positions and anticipation of power changes.
2. Consider wind conditions and drift factors, obstructions and safety procedures, to include emergency abort and wing pilot’s “outs.”
3. Fly a formation loop or barrel roll along the showline, maintaining roll, pitch, and speed control throughout the maneuver.
4. Wing pilots must be able to maintain station within one wingspan of entry position.
5. Applicants must demonstrate this maneuver for each position (wing or lead).
6. Be able to safely abort the maneuver at any time if needed or if asked to by the ACE.

Note: These maneuver(s) may be performed as part of an air show sequence demonstration.

D. Task: Break and rejoin

To determine if applicants can separate and regroup their formation in an efficient manner.

1. Exhibit knowledge of intercepts and closure rates in turning form-ups.
2. Make a “180 degree break maneuver” and reform the formation in minimum time, preferably in turning flight.
3. Wing pilot(s) should return to within one wingspan of their original positions.
4. Applicants must demonstrate these procedures for each position.

Note: This task may be accomplished as part of an air show sequence demonstration.

1. Task: Aerobatic Sequence Demonstration [for established teams]

To determine if the applicants can complete a full air show sequence. For established teams, this demonstration may be in lieu of the above maneuvers if the team is recertifying by performing the Air Evaluation during an air show demonstration in waivered air show airspace. If the evaluation is for an original issuance for any member of the team, this demonstration must be performed in waivered, practice airspace.

1. Exhibit knowledge of energy requirements and sequence design.
2. Maintain a safe altitude at all times as appropriate to the level sought.
3. Compensate for winds and atmospheric conditions on order to maintain safe energy levels and to keep the routine balanced and centered within the demonstration area.
4. Except when recertifying at an air show, applicant must demonstrate as a flight lead in order to be endorsed as “Formation – Lead.”
5. Be able to abort the sequence at any time as needed for safety or if requested by the ACE, without endangering the pilots or spectators. [Note: The ACE should not ask the applicants to abort their sequence during an actual air show performance.]
6. All maneuvers shall be performed to the same standards as set in the preceding tasks.

 

[Seggy]

I think the point some of us (at least me) are trying to make is that you cant make any real significant changes, without changing the very nature of the event.

Really? Where is your documentation for that?

If you look at the NTSB Recommendations, I don't see how it would change the nature of the event.

"Our investigation revealed that this pilot, in this airplane, had never flown at this speed, on this course," said Chairman Hersman. "We are issuing a safety recommendation to ensure that pilots and their modified airplanes are put through their paces prior to race day."

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2012/120410.html

 

[MikeD]

G-onset isn't everything. You can have a very rapid onset of a lot of G's and remain conscious.....there is enough residual fluid in your body, as well as a couple more physiological responses to keep you awake for 3-4 seconds. The scary part about rapid onset with really high G's is that once you run that "battery" dry, you black out immediately, without any warning like grey/blackout. So I would say that doing 10+ G's for a matter of a second or two is not always going to result in loss of consciousness, but that you would have to very rapidly easy the loading after that. I've had quick pulls up to and even through the G limiter that I haven't even noticed until I checked the max G reading post knock-it-off, and have had to review my tapes to see when it actually happened. Haven't over-G'd a jet yet however.....knock on wood

That's what I was saying....whether the G onset that was instantaneous could've been countered or not, prior to (in this case) it going from instantaneous to more of a sustained, if even for a short duration sustained......which is where this one appeared to go and rapidly became impossible to counter.

 

[Hacker15e]

Each race division is considering and implementing the recommendations in the NTSB report differently, since they're all impacted differently.

It is an internal matter to those divisions at the current time, but they ARE acting on some of the recommendations.

The most important part is this: we all know (or SHOULD know) that in the spirit of "two sides to every story", NTSB reports are produced by people with a particular agenda, and do not cover all the intricacies of a particular situation. You can't just read the report and the recommendations in a vacuum and believe that you have all the information needed to make an accurate assessment.

 

[MikeD]

The most important part is this: we all know (or SHOULD know) that in the spirit of "two sides to every story", NTSB reports are produced by people with a particular agenda, and do not cover all the intricacies of a particular situation. You can't just read the report and the recommendations in a vacuum and believe that you have all the information needed to make an accurate assessment.

.....TWA 800.

 

[A Life Aloft]

The issues for the NTSB seem to be:

The extensive modifications made to airplanes that race in the unlimited class and the lack of documentation and inspection associated with those modifications.
The lack of training/experience with G-forces.
That this pilot, in this airplane, had never flown at this speed, on this course.

Recommendations:

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/recletters/2012/A-12-009-012.pdf

Require aircraft owners in the unlimited class to provide an engineering
evaluation that includes flight demonstrations and analysis within the
anticipated flight envelope for aircraft with any major modification, such as to
the structure or flight controls. (A-12-9)
Develop a system that tracks any discrepancies noted during pre-race technical
inspections and verifies that they have been resolved. (A-12-10)
Provide high g training to pilots, including techniques to mitigate the potential
effects of high g exposure, as part of preparations before the Reno National
Championship Air Races (NCAR) and during daily briefs at the NCAR.
(A-12-11)
Evaluate the feasibility of requiring pilots to wear g suits when racing at the
Reno National Championship Air Races; if the evaluation determines it is
feasible, implement a requirement. (A-12-12)
The NTSB also issued safety recommendations to the Federal Aviation Administration
and the Reno Air Racing Association.

Amendments:

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/recletters/2012/A-12-013-017.pdf

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/recletters/2012/A-12-009-012.pdf

Participants of the Safety Hearing:

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2012/120105.html

 

[jhugz]

Seggy gets called out on his crap, then drops the blackball post. Shows character, and proves to me that I don't want to be in a cockpit with you at any point.

 

[Seggy]

Huh?

I (or I would hope everyone else) would NEVER hurt anyone's career for what they post on here. That is childish and completely unprofessional. Anyone who does that deserves a blanket party.

I was just saying if you have that attitude (poking fun at another pilots misfortune), it will bite you in the ass one day jhugz. If you don't think it can happen to you, it will.

 

[knot4u]

Really? Where is your documentation for that?

If you look at the NTSB Recommendations, I don't see how it would change the nature of the event.



View attachment 21579

 

[beasly]

To race at Reno you can start with ZERO air racing experience. Attend the Pylon Racing School, qualify, and now you're a certified air race pilot. (I'm not trying to discredit beginning air racers, it's an intense class.)

Sorry... this is a long one.

I got vertigo reading that; excellent post, thank you.

 

[BobDDuck]

Shows character, and proves to me that I don't want to be in a cockpit with you at any point.

It's all good dude. I don't think he (or pretty much anybody else I know for that matter) would want to be sharing a cockpit with you, so I don't think you'll have to worry about it too much.

 

[Seggy]

Well I appreciate it to the person who explained a few things to me and answered a lot of my questions concerning the Reno Air Race.

With that said, it really is sad that because one has a different view, and asks questions about that view, they are attacked.

 

[Hacker15e]

It's all good dude. I don't think he (or pretty much anybody else I know for that matter) would want to be sharing a cockpit with you, so I don't think you'll have to worry about it too much.

So, do all 121 operations allow pilots to have official "do not fly me with...." lists with scheduling??

 

[BobDDuck]

So, do all 121 operations allow pilots to have official "do not fly me with...." lists with scheduling??

Some places have an official list. Some places award captain lines first and then allow FOs to bid and that way they can try to avoid landmines. We don't have any method here but I had a standing deal with FlightOps and Scheduling that if I got paired with a certain captain they could either reassign me or I'd just be out sick for the trip, which they did stick to the two times it happened.

It's a pretty rare occurrence that there will be a personality conflict of such magnitude that would prevent a crew from safely working together, even if they don't really get along. My comment was more general than specific.

 

[MikeD]

With that said, it really is sad that because one has a different view, and asks questions about that view, they are attacked.

It's almost JC standard with a number of threads around here, unfortunately. I catch them when I can.

 

[Seggy]

It's almost JC standard with a number of threads around here, unfortunately. I catch them when I can.

Oh that is ok. I have REALLY thick skin.

 

[darrenf]

I have REALLY thick skin.

How would you know?

 

[jhugz]

With that said, it really is sad that because one has a different view, and asks questions about that view, they are attacked.

This is some of the most hypocritical crap I've ever read on this website. Congrats, I've always thought it was impossible to top jtrain.