Who moved your cheese?

[JEP]

How does Alpaca taste?

Like chicken,,,,

 

[Eagle421flyer]

Thanks for the post @ZapBrannigan it's great. My cheese has been moved many times I got hired in Feb of 2001 at XJT. To be honest when I started flying I always (dreamed) I'd be working at a legacy flying wide bodies to Europe, living in Florida. Instead I've been furloughed, spent 10 years at a regional, had my "flow through" cancelled, they flowed back so I got furloughed but the flow through was cancelled. Then I went to a ULCC where I was lucky (and I mean that) to learned invaluable lessons in (bad) management and have the opportunity to work in safety/training. Now I'm on my third airline (not the legacy dream of 14 years ago) and I hope it's my last. In the aviation world this is probably unlikely but I can hope. The only thing that bothers me sometimes is when the folks who got hired at a legacy when they were 30, can't understand my path career and wonder why I'm not at "their" legacy.

But the truth is I'm really happy. I'm not living in Florida (in Chicago and I hate the weather). But I sit reserve from home, see my family all the time, and to honest I'm happy flying enough to stay current. The best thing to do in this industry is be flexible and (try) and be optimistic, because sometimes even when your career doesn't go the way you think it should it works out in the end.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Please don't want you folks to think that my post was directed specifically at younger guys or commuter guys. On the contrary there are quite a few major airline pilots who have had to adjust their career expectations due to mergers and who aren't handling it very well. They naturally deserve to be disappointed or frustrated, but they need to learn to put it behind them. They are, in many ways, fortunate. Sure, commuting is no fun. Being downgraded is hard on the self esteem. But both of those things pale in comparison to one or more furloughs, companies going out of business, etc..

 

[moxiepilot]

 

[ZapBrannigan]

We still have the tin and it is used to store stuff.

Good post. When I was at ALG, one day the CEO of US Air took a trip in 1994 and saw the commuter fleet. The next day half the fleet was parked for good and people were losing their jobs. I was slated to not only be downgraded but to be furloughed. At the last minute someone quit and I kept my job, but was downgraded. Those who were furloughed went to Valujet or SWA and you know where they now landed. I stayed, and eventually upgraded in 1997 but decided I could not stand it by 2001 and left. In my new hire class, there were only two of us who left jobs to go there. Everyone else came from a tale of woe--one failed airline after another. I was low time with 11,000 + hours compared to some of them! The upgrade time was less than two years and everything looked wonderful. Two weeks later planes crashed into buildings and we were furloughed. The company promised they would try to recall in 4 months and they kept the promise. But the upgrades never happened. Every other airline got government help but we didn't. I didn't get the upgrade until late 2007. I had to take a commute from PHL to SJU to do it. But if I flew another second with a CA who felt the need to teach me how to fly, I knew I was going to kill someone! Then the phony oil speculation hit and I was downgraded in Sept 2008. I figured I could hold being #2 in the base near home, so I took it. We are paired for a month. I was flying my first month with a great guy, John Costa. He had a terrible cough and finally his wife insisted he call off a trip and go to the MD. He was diagnosed pretty quickly with lung cancer. That was his last flying and he passed away after a valiant battle in Feb, 2011. I am thankful that I got to fly with him as he set my head in the right place so I didn't want to kill any more captains. Finally, in May 2010 I got the upgrade again. As soon as I was on the line, we went on strike.

Every day I am grateful for what I have. My cheese has moved, but I am stronger for it.

That's the kind of story I am talking about. Who has any right to complain about a good job, steady paycheck, when compared with what you went through? Thank you for contributing. Wish I still had the cheese container. ;-)

 

[Tld]

Fly airplanes
Choose happiness
Eat cheese

People make life harder for themselves than it has to be. Life is not that bad. Change is inevitable. Really great post Zap!
(And fwiw, there is a great cheese shop in the Green Bay airport.)

 

[DE727UPS]

Hey Zap. Did the US Air guys lose their numbers after being on furlough a certain amount of time? That's the one thing from your story I've never got. Why you didn't go back to US Air with your old number after all those years at Walmart, ect...

I guess I missed out on all the moving cheese. Though I had challenges in my career I went to a bottom feeder major in 90 and stayed rather than chase the cheese many of my classmates sought. Turned out good. Not glamorous but good.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Hey Zap. Did the US Air guys lose their numbers after being on furlough a certain amount of time? That's the one thing from your story I've never got. Why you didn't go back to US Air with your old number after all those years at Walmart, ect...

I guess I missed out on all the moving cheese. Though I had challenges in my career I went to a bottom feeder major in 90 and stayed rather than chase the cheese many of my classmates sought. Turned out good. Not glamorous but good.

I was flying a Metro into FSD and the runway was closed due to ice. Are you saying that crew wasn't living the dream when they had to divert their boxes of Shari's Berries, Amazon, 1800 Flowers, and Fresh fish to MSP at 8AM after flying all night? We diverted to KFAR and ate at The Shack and stayed at the Day's Inn. I don't think they were living the dream like we were, especially after a 15 hour duty day.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Hey Zap. Did the US Air guys lose their numbers after being on furlough a certain amount of time? That's the one thing from your story I've never got. Why you didn't go back to US Air with your old number after all those years at Walmart, ect...

I guess I missed out on all the moving cheese. Though I had challenges in my career I went to a bottom feeder major in 90 and stayed rather than chase the cheese many of my classmates sought. Turned out good. Not glamorous but good.

Good question, and one I ask myself a lot. You know the old saying that you make the best decision you can given the information that you have? I was recalled by Airways in mid 2007. They were flirting with bankruptcy again at the time and had just closed the PIT crew base. I honestly had my doubts as to whether or not they were still going to be in business. The America West merger was contentious and my friends still at the company were unhappy. They said nobody was enjoying the job anymore. The environment was toxic. The contract had been gutted and I would take a substantial pay cut had I gone back, only a handful of my classmates made the decision to go back. At the same time a lot of Captains who had invested decades of their career into that airline were bailing out. Not only that but some were mentors to me like my initial DC9 instructor and my Pittsburgh Union rep... Both who left USAir to start over at LCCs. The recall acceptance rate was extraordinarily low.

At the same time, things at Walmart were still pretty good in 2007. We were still basically a Mon-Fri flight department with very few overnights. I had just upgraded to Captain and become a standards pilot. Walmart was replacing the fleet with brand new Learjets, and had still never in its history laid off a pilot. I was proud to be a pilot for the world's largest corporation.

Finally, our little boy had just turned a year old and seemed as if he was going to take his first steps any day. The prospect of going to school for two months and then commuting to a Crashpad in Philly meant that I was going to miss a lot of "firsts" that Walmart's unique lifestyle were going to allow me to be there for.

So even though it was the toughest decision of my life, especially given that my Dad was a pilot there for 30+ years, and that USAir was a company that I had grown up with and had deep emotional attachments to, I made the decision to decline recall and lost my number in 07.

If I had a crystal ball I probably would have made a different decision, but I had no way of knowing that Walmart was going to change management, lay off 20% of their pilots, move the cheese (or take the cheese, stomp all over it and throw it out the window), nor could I have guessed that Airways was going to turn the Titanic around and one day merge with American,

But it's interesting to be a Monday morning quarterback and look back and think "what if?". I still have people ask why I chose not to accept recall at AirTran in 99... all I can tell them is that you had to be there in 99 and make the best decision you could at the time. USAir felt like a better gamble.

Still, I'm not unhappy with how things turned out. I got to fly lots of cool airplanes with some terrific pilots. Moved to a part of the country we love. Had a great kid that we probably wouldn't have had had we stayed in PA. Now at my fourth major airline I have an interesting resume that makes for some good stories at the bar. I'm not being flippant. If you knew me back then, and many on this forum did, you know how much I struggled with and agonized over that decision. At the end of the day I did what I did and it has become just another chapter in what can only be described as an "interesting" civilian pilot career.

Crazy business we live in, isn't it?

 

[ChasenSFO]

Great thread. I've gained better perspective reading it so far.

To mirror what has already been touched on, the attitude one needs to be successful in a career with huge set backs just about inevitable is the same attitude anyone who wants to be successful in life should have. We all plan for things to go a certain way, we need some direction, but long-term plans will very rarely turn out the way we hope. That's life. But you can make the best of it and re-think your next step, or hate the world and mope through life. The second option will get you nowhere, but its a hell of a lot easier for sure.

My cheese has been moved many times already. When I first started lessons in high school, it looked like I'd have inheritance that would cover my ratings and a 4-year degree. My family made some bad decisions and hundreds of thousands are gone in weeks, off to community college and on my own financially before I even had the PPL. When I got my PPL in 2010, it looked like I was going to get married and end up a cadet in the Philippines probably flying wide bodies in cruise or A320s from the right seat by now. Then a 5 year+ relationship and 7 year+ friendship(big numbers for a 21 year old) were over just like that, and I'm sure you can piece that together. Well crap, guess I need money. Revelation, I have a calling to be a comic and I'll just stay on that grind until I make enough to finish my ratings, I mean I'm 3 years in at an airline and about to finally have weekends off next bid(essential to do anything in entertainment). Crap, we lost the above-wing contract and the ramp is more senior. It's ok, I'll stick it out. About a year later, weekends off! A month later, what do you know, the airline decides to go from 60/40 partime/fulltime to 10/90 with ALL part-time lines being weekend shifts(while guys with 6 months seniority now have sat/sun off) and no opportunity to switch to fulltime. Hmm okay, well I'll move to San Jose where aircraft rental is way cheaper and get a job in the ramp tower AND a second job down there since if I'm not going to have weekends off anyway, and I should be able to knock out my ratings. Hmm, the starting pay isn't even close to what they told me and turns out I was hired with the expectation that another guy would be fired, but he wasn't. Well crap, I have rent to pay now and I'm on a super erratic, but often very sporadic schedule. "We need you 2 days this month, wait just kidding so and so's having surgery, drop everything and come in 40 hours a week, ok now don't come in tomorrow and you're back to one day next month...for now". Can't hold a second job with that kind of set up, but it'll be worth it if I stick it out and go fulltime in the tower and get raises right? Unable to afford a single flight for an entire year, have to move back in with my parents(HUGE bullet to bite, home life es nooooo bueno) just to afford to fly 1-2 hours every month or two. Finally get promoted to a better tower with fulltime and a raise, cool time to save money for flying! About $10k in medical and other unexpected bills, a couple dead friends, and one stand-up gig that 90 hour work weeks in the tower killed any hope of later, I have maybe 10 new hours in my log book to show for it all. So much for my miserable year at home, though it saved my but with that $10k it didn't get me much closer to my IFR, let alone CFI.

Despite all that, honestly I wouldn't change a thing. It built a lot of character, it made me very strong. And now, just like magic, as fast as it all seemed to go to crap, everything is coming together. But it's not magic, I kept getting back up on that horse willing to ride a mile to get an inch closer to my goals. Now between my savings and the generosity of friends on JC, there is light at the end of the tunnel. All this and I'm not even at an airline yet. But that doesn't matter, because this is life. Through all of this, I've done what I've loved. Sure the schedules and pay screwed me greatly, but I've loved every job I've had so far. Doing what I love and working in aviation helped me keep my chin up, make connections, and not mope around no matter what life threw at me. And I truly believe that attitude is why so many people are willing to help me. Being like the apathetic F/O @ZapBrannigan mentioned is going to do nothing but steer people away, and yet those people wonder why they can't move on. In the age of information, how anyone can go into a flying career without a sturdy pair of knee-pads strapped on is beyond me. Oh well, more opportunities for those who actually have the drive to find a way to get as close to their goals as possible rather than make excuses for why they can't.

 

[Hacker15e]

I personally know there are a lot of folks out there who have all kinds of hard luck/tragic life and career stories (guys I've been in the military with as well as friends/acquaintances outside), but they just don't choose to say, "woe is me, look how hard the man has been beating me down." Instead, they go quietly on living and enjoying life.

They know -- like I know -- that life is inherently unfair.

Sometimes that unfairness breaks for us, and sometimes it breaks against us.

Either way, we have no way of influencing the external chaos that determines that unfairness. We can only make the best, most informed choices we can given the information before us at the time, and then accept the outcomes of those decisions.

Sometimes we are happy with those outcomes, and sometimes we're not. As has been said numerous times lately around JC, we are individually, personally in charge of our own happiness in life.

We aren't entitled to anything in life, so manage your own expectations appropriately. You are the only one who is going to deal with it emotionally when those expectations are either not met or exceeded, for better or worse.

 

[Cptnchia]

Please don't want you folks to think that my post was directed specifically at younger guys or commuter guys. On the contrary there are quite a few major airline pilots who have had to adjust their career expectations due to mergers and who aren't handling it very well. They naturally deserve to be disappointed or frustrated, but they need to learn to put it behind them. They are, in many ways, fortunate. Sure, commuting is no fun. Being downgraded is hard on the self esteem. But both of those things pale in comparison to one or more furloughs, companies going out of business, etc..

There's no age limit on being a SNAP.

 

[e6bflyer]

Good post. Coming straight from the military and starting airline life, it helps to get perspective from guys that have been around a while.

I just finished a 3 day with a fairly senior captain (top 50 percent in base) and he made it miserable. We got rerouted and instead of saying "dang, that sucks. Good thing we are getting paid extra for this misery," he proceeded to bitch the entire time to anyone with ears. He made scheduling get us a hotel for our 4 hour sit even though it was way more hassle than just sitting in the lounge, and was just generally gruff and angry the entire time. I am new and on probation, so I just smiled and nodded. Even flight attendants started asking me what his problem was.

For the record, he went from the military to a regional for a couple of years and has been at the same airline for 15 years with a quick upgrade. First wife, one kid in college. Charmed life.

I guess what I am saying is that the type of person you are is generally the result of two things.
- The circumstances and events in your life
- How you choose to handle things

This guy had a charmed life but was still pissed at the world. Why? I don't know, couldn't figure it out. He was also one of those "the company does it this way, but my way is better" kind of captains.

I have flown with other captains who have taken a full bite of the • sandwich, worked for four airlines, on their second wife, etc, and were a true joy to fly with.

Me? I tend to just take things as they come, but I have found that lamenting about my bad circumstances and continuing to bitch about them accomplishes absolutely nothing other than making me miserable longer.

 

[Cptnchia]

I tend to just take things as they come, but I have found that lamenting about my bad circumstances and continuing to bitch about them accomplishes absolutely nothing other than making me miserable longer.

And you have discovered the secret to a long and happy life and career!

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I think that's part of it too. People who graduated from Riddle (aviation school brand Y or whatever) and went straight to a regional just don't have the frame of reference with respect to how good a pilot job is. There are challenges, sure, but there are challenges in any job.

My worst day at ASA was better than my best day at SofterWare or adidas America. Not even close with adidas. That job SUCKED. $25,000 a year for a database analyst. Horrible boss. No flexibility. God it brings back nightmares...

Seriously. The worst day I've had in my whole professional aviation experience was still better than many days at my desk job. I don't think I'm in an optimal place, but at least I'm in a place.

But hey, Riddle Rats, keep complaining. This is largely about what you make of it.

 

[dasleben]

Seriously. The worst day I've had in my whole professional aviation experience was still better than many days at my desk job. I don't think I'm in an optimal place, but at least I'm in a place.

But hey, Riddle Rats, keep complaining. This is largely about what you make of it.

Truth. I sold cars right after college (Riddle!). I specifically remember being yelled at and told to "Go sell them a f-ing car" when I told my boss that the young family who'd come in couldn't really afford the car they were looking at, and wanted to think it over first. That was a job that required you to put aside your morals in exchange for money, and when I couldn't (and wouldn't), I was terminated.

Now I just show up and go to work. My boss doesn't know me (a good thing), and I can count on one hand the number of times I've spoken to a scheduler this year. I fly my line, get paid, and go home. At the end of the day, it's a pretty easy gig.

 

[jtrain609]

I flew on the jumpseat of a regional jet not long ago with a first officer that by all rights the captain should have kicked off the trip. This gentleman was completely disinterested and disengaged in the performance of his job. No matter how hard the captain tried, this guy would barely mumble through the checklist or a bare minimum briefing. When he did speak up it was to lament that he was still in the right seat after 6 or 7 years and that he wasn't getting a call from jetBlue or Spirit or United.

Not doing your job is unacceptable, but let me highlight something here:

This is no hope for regional FO's, and that's what has folks down. If you've been sitting at ExpressJet or Eagle for the last 7 years, and haven't had a chance to upgrade yet, and have already been furloughed once, and now your company is about to be taken apart, the only thing you have to look forward to is more time in the right seat, at another regional, for even less pay.

Nobody is going to be happy about that, and we shouldn't EXPECT guys to be happy about that. If they're unable to make the move to another regional to get some PIC time, then the likelihood that they'll move onto a respectable mainline job soon enough to have a chance to upgrade there in the next 20 years is small.

And let's be honest, the time crunch is already happening; if you don't get on with American, Delta or United in the next few years, you will NEVER upgrade at these companies. Will you have a fine career in the right seat? Maybe. But for all we know, guys will retire in the right seat of an EMB-190 at American in 30 years because the music stopped again.

So folks are antsy, and we should understand why. The stakes are high, and many folks will lose in this career. THAT'S NOT GOOD.

I'm not saying guys shouldn't do their job, but it's easy to see 20-30 years into the future and realize that if things don't start happening soon, for many, this career will never get moving.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

John,

That's no excuse for acting like a wiener in the cockpit. Ever.

Laugh it off and keep on plugging, or go do something else like YOU did.

I've whined about some of the things that happened to me in the past, but never let it impact the way I do my job. It's a matter of integrity. I know I don't have to tell you. And you shouldn't make excuses for them.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Not doing your job is unacceptable, but let me highlight something here:

This is no hope for regional FO's, and that's what has folks down. If you've been sitting at ExpressJet or Eagle for the last 7 years, and haven't had a chance to upgrade yet, and have already been furloughed once, and now your company is about to be taken apart, the only thing you have to look forward to is more time in the right seat, at another regional, for even less pay.

Nobody is going to be happy about that, and we shouldn't EXPECT guys to be happy about that. If they're unable to make the move to another regional to get some PIC time, then the likelihood that they'll move onto a respectable mainline job soon enough to have a chance to upgrade there in the next 20 years is small.

And let's be honest, the time crunch is already happening; if you don't get on with American, Delta or United in the next few years, you will NEVER upgrade at these companies. Will you have a fine career in the right seat? Maybe. But for all we know, guys will retire in the right seat of an EMB-190 at American in 30 years because the music stopped again.

So folks are antsy, and we should understand why. The stakes are high, and many folks will lose in this career. THAT'S NOT GOOD.

I'm not saying guys shouldn't do their job, but it's easy to see 20-30 years into the future and realize that if things don't start happening soon, for many, this career will never get moving.

Hooray, but the bottom line is this: if you can't be bothered to do Captain stuff, you need to get out of the seat and let someone else do it.

(you know this, of course.)

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

While I agree with some of this, some of it also deserves challenging.

Why is it that someone who has been furloughed 3 or 4 times, or who has watched their once great airline dissolved can be happy starting over at 40+ years old, but a younger pilot whose career might be hitting his first speed bump can't handle it?

Well, for one thing, different generations deal with different circumstances in how they got to where they are. Look at today's generation of perpetual regional FOs. These guys didn't spend $20k to get their ratings like I did. Many of them spent $60k or more. A lot of my FOs at Pinnacle spent six figures at Riddle. That's a new phenomenon. The cost to get to the front seat of an airliner has grown exponentially. So while someone back in the '90s might shrug it off and say "hey, it's just another few years and I'll get my brass ring," the guy today is saying "holy crap, I can't afford to both pay my student loan and eat this month!"

You mention guys in the '80s. What percentage of EAL, BNF, etc. pilots were former military? A hell of a lot. It's easier to deal with your cheese being moved when you've got a military pension to cushion the blow.

Just a couple of examples, but the point is that it's not always fair to compare the reactions of different people and hold one up as superior to the other.

I met another pilot recently whose carrier had been merged into another and the merger didn't go so well for him. After the seniority integration was complete he had lost his seat and been forced to commute. He was furious, even though he still had what was by all rights a good paying job with a good quality of life. That's not to say he shouldn't have been upset about being forced to commute. But how is that any different than that Braniff pilot or Eastern pilot or Emery pilot who found himself out of work when his airline went out of business... and starting over commuting to a new domicile at another airline.

Come on! You're just begging me to get mad with this one! There is absolutely no comparison of an AirTran pilot's seniority rape to the Eastern pilot. Eastern was a failed business. Sure, Lorenzo was scum and made things a lot worse than it had to be, but Eastern was in a death spiral long before Frank came around. Same with Emery, or any number of other airlines where financial failures lead to lost jobs.

Financial failure did not lead to the AirTran pilot being screwed. An unholy alliance between management and SWAPA did. Threats and intimidation did. Refusal to stick by agreements that were made did. To compare this situation to an airline simply going out of business is ridiculous. You know better. The AirTran guy you mention is right to be pissed. He is the product of the worst seniority integration in the history of commercial aviation. AirTran pilots would beg for the seniority integration that the TWA employees got, and their integration was so bad that it resulted in new laws being created to supposedly protect employees!

I suggest never mentioning your opinion to an AirTran pilot when you see one in the crew lounge unless you're ready to duck.

OR, you can do what I did and make a change. There are a lot of guys here who have done it. I went back to the airlines when my cheese got moved. ATN_Pilot is taking over his family business because his cheese got moved. If you are that unhappy, then DO something about it!

Easier said than done for most pilots. For starters, many don't have any other skills or education. Look at all of the guys around here with degrees in "professional aeronautics." Try marketing that degree around in unrelated fields. Many have never done any other kind of work. Aviation is all that they know.

You may say to do what you did and find another aviation job. Again, not everyone is able to do that. Most people can't afford to take a 70% pay cut to make a move somewhere else. I know that I would be stuck at SWA if I didn't have my own business to escape to. There isn't a chance that I could bail and go to another airline. Even Delta, with the best first year wages, is more than a 50% pay cut first year. Even for people like me who have the cash available to weather that still can't justify it, because it takes so long to make that money back up again. It's better to just stay where you are and push through the anger. Factor in the time value of money and you can never recover that lost money. That's too much for most people to accept.

Stuff happens. I'm sorry you have to commute when you didn't before. Or that you're an FO now, when you've been a captain for years. Or that you're starting over at airline number four. I've been there and I know how you feel. But don't make life miserable for the people around you.

This I can agree with. I'm as pissed off at SWA and SWAPA as anyone alive, but I don't even mention it when I'm flying unless the other guy brings it up, and I certainly don't let it affect my performance on the job. Being bitterly pissed off is human. Being bad at your job is unacceptable.

We are all on this ride together and, for better or for worse, it still beats working for a living doesn't it?

Oh, how I hate this phrase with such a passion. If you only knew how many managers have thrown it back in our face. And besides, it ain't that great of a job.