Who likes PBS?

[OldTownPilot]

We used to have an option to avoid being paired with a check airmen on paper bids. The guys that wanted to pay the "bought off roullete (I'm looking at YOU Ken)" could throw their hat in and try to get paired with a check airmen. Those of us that wanted to fly, could avoid them. Now, if you want to fly, you need every check airman's employee number and put them in your "don't pair me with" preference. Down side is, now you have to rank THAT over days off, commutability, etc. With the way our buy out works here, if you live in base, it's awesome. If you're a commuter, you just lost money if you get bought off since it puts you sitting de-facto reserve.

Example: Frank the FO gets a sweet commutable 4 day. Let's say frank commutes from TUL-MEM. Unfortunately, Frank gets bought off since he's paired with a check airman. Now, instead of having the company pay for his hotels while he's on his trip, Frank now has to commute from TUL-MEM and wait for a phone call for EACH of his 4 days. He's on call from 90 minutes prior to his show EACH DAY until his show time. Which means if his show time was 1 pm on day one, scheduling can call him between 11:30 am and 1 pm to assign him a trip. If they haven't called him by 1, he's done for the day. Now, on day 2, he was supposed to be in SHV with a show time of 5 am. Instead, he's in a hotel or crash pad in MEM on his own dime hoping scheduling will assign him something from 3:30 am-5 am so he doesn't have to pay for a hotel/crash pad for the next two days. Rinse repeat.

If you live in base, it's a sweet deal since scheduling can only call you for 90 minutes. If they call you before or after, they missed their window and can go suck eggs. For commuters, it's a nightmare.

At CAL if you are 'bought off', you are being paid to sit you ass on a chair at camp and drink all the beer you want.

 

[Trip7]

And yet CT's little memo indicates otherwise - in my mind.

There is no doubt in my mind we are overstaffed, and I don't really need management to tell me we are obese.

I'm left with a feeling that our company will be left without a seat to sit in post-merger. Especially when the contract language restricts us to being one of the two lowest cost DCI companies in Atlanta. I have no doubt that daddy Delta will make an attempt to bring in a lower operating cost company following the merger (Colgan), hence bumping us out of the two low cost column, making us third or even fourth. By that happening, Delta is no longer obligated to provided 80% of the DCI flying to us.

Sucks. . .and I'd hate to have to be quoted here in a few months, but that's what I'm expecting. We have a senior pilot group, and not nearly as senior as to have us with a large number of retirements. Delta hiring in the next few months is a pipe dream. Divine intervention will be required to keep some of us off the street.

Stop dooming and glooming. There has been no indication whatsoever Colgan's coming in here. The Q400 is nowhere on Delta's mind, especially with fuel prices down like they are.

BH said months ago that ASA is taking other proactive steps to cut costs besides furloughing. CT's memo is one of those proactive steps. Those fine folks in flight ops are taking the hit for cost savings. ASA is only using 2 sims for the 200 at FS. Another proactive step. Expect to see more of this. ASA cut every cost they can in other departments before furloughing a pilot.

And once again, at this stage in the game is would cost the company money to furlough, not save it money.

 

[surreal1221]

Won't matter if we're left without a seat to sit in come post-merger.

I'll agree it is doom and gloom talk, but it's also rational, reality based talk coming from someone who has a mortgage, two cars, a little one on the way.

If there was evidence to indicate that we wouldn't be treated like crap following the merger I'd probably be singing some Utopian tune as well. Unfortunately, our economy is in a world of hurt, and those of us on the real bottom of the seniority list will most likely have the street looking us square in our faces here in a few months.

ASA has a great history, and I'm afraid that's all we're going to have - is history. A future? I'm significantly doubtful the company will be around in 10 or 15 years.

Obviously I hope I'm proved wrong, and the company is able to have a seat to sit in post merger, with no furloughs.

I'd rather plan for the worst possible outcome, than hold some utopian opinion that everything will be fine and then when the hammer drops left out in the dust, unprepared to deal with the reality of being put out of work. I recommend others do the same.

 

[gtpilot]

And once again, at this stage in the game is would cost the company money to furlough, not save it money.

How do you figure? I realize the furlough group will be 1-2 yr FOs and therefore not well paid, but where is the extra cost?

Not that airline management in general has a great history of making cost effective decisions!

Back to PBS, regardless of the system, I'd be really surprised if it generated the million+ savings promised. Besides, it seems like PBS of sorts for integration now anyway - we bid on 'integration preference'. Isn't integration the problem anyway (according to mgt)?

 

[Trip7]

Won't matter if we're left without a seat to sit in come post-merger.

I'll agree it is doom and gloom talk, but it's also rational, reality based talk coming from someone who has a mortgage, two cars, a little one on the way.

If there was evidence to indicate that we wouldn't be treated like crap following the merger I'd probably be singing some Utopian tune as well. Unfortunately, our economy is in a world of hurt, and those of us on the real bottom of the seniority list will most likely have the street looking us square in our faces here in a few months.

ASA has a great history, and I'm afraid that's all we're going to have - is history. A future? I'm significantly doubtful the company will be around in 10 or 15 years.

Obviously I hope I'm proved wrong, and the company is able to have a seat to sit in post merger, with no furloughs.

I'd rather plan for the worst possible outcome, than hold some utopian opinion that everything will be fine and then when the hammer drops left out in the dust, unprepared to deal with the reality of being put out of work. I recommend others do the same.

ASA may not have a seat in DCI for growth post merger, but they surely have a seat post merger. Seems like this memo about cutting instructor pilots CT sent has everybody in full doom & gloom mode.

One more thing to add, the pilot group cannot say to the company we'll see you in two years. The contract we signed said we'll negotiate in good faith with the company PBS. While for the most part I agree with you and Todd's methods of negotiation with management, I believe due to the myriad of factors you mentioned above, that this is a really bad time to be militant.

We must go to the negotiating table and workout something that will benefit both sides overall. PBS will save the companies millions of dollars. The pilot group should get a percentage of those savings, and not one pilot job should be lost.

How do you figure? I realize the furlough group will be 1-2 yr FOs and therefore not well paid, but where is the extra cost?

Not that airline management in general has a great history of making cost effective decisions!

Back to PBS, regardless of the system, I'd be really surprised if it generated the million+ savings promised. Besides, it seems like PBS of sorts for integration now anyway - we bid on 'integration preference'. Isn't integration the problem anyway (according to mgt)?

I didn't figure. That's what I was told over at the A-tech from the higher ups. I didn't ask the specifics, but I'm guessing they have to retrain everyone that gets recalled. No point of furloughing in January and recalling for the summer.

 

[surreal1221]

You think we're (those who want to wait 2 years before we even discuss bringing PBS on property) being militant?

Really? Considering that the company stone-walled the pilot group for 5.5 years, why in the hell should we run to their aid in bringing PBS to our company? Just because we said we would "explore" the possibility of bringing PBS on property? Exploring, and actually doing it are two different things.

I could deal with PBS, so long as the company waited until our contract was amendable. And - if it's the last section that we negotiate. Perhaps providing the company an incentive to speed up the process this time around, as opposed to dragging it out for 5.5 years.

Militant. . .no. . .not even close to militant.

Nevertheless, we have a very long way to go before it is even put in place. The PWG has to report back to the MEC, the MEC has to put it up for a vote to the pilot group; which if things remain as they currently are - will see an amazingly loud NO from the majority of the pilot group. Then what? Two years will go on by, and now with some negotiating capital we can get things WE want while giving the company something in return.

 

[Trip7]

You think we're (those who want to wait 2 years before we even discuss bringing PBS on property) being militant?

Really? Considering that the company stone-walled the pilot group for 5.5 years, why in the hell should we run to their aid in bringing PBS to our company? Just because we said we would "explore" the possibility of bringing PBS on property? Exploring, and actually doing it are two different things.

I could deal with PBS, so long as the company waited until our contract was amendable. And - if it's the last section that we negotiate. Perhaps providing the company an incentive to speed up the process this time around, as opposed to dragging it out for 5.5 years.

Militant. . .no. . .not even close to militant.

Nevertheless, we have a very long way to go before it is even put in place. The PWG has to report back to the MEC, the MEC has to put it up for a vote to the pilot group; which if things remain as they currently are - will see an amazingly loud NO from the majority of the pilot group. Then what? Two years will go on by, and now with some negotiating capital we can get things WE want while giving the company something in return.

I say when ever the PWG has finished its report, the MEC sits down and negotiates with management. Why wait too years for contract improvements when we can get it now? We have one of the better pilot management relationships in the industry. We're not dealing with Pinnacle type management over here. Overall my point is we go to the table and neogiate when the time comes. We don't have time to play these "we'll see you in 2 years" games.

 

[surreal1221]

Thankfully, our MEC can not simply negotiate with management. This type of resolution and amendment to our contract prior to our amendable date requires a vote from the pilot group.

I'm afraid to say it but I don't have a high level of confidence in our MEC and LEC right now.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I'm afraid to say it but I don't have a high level of confidence in our MEC and LEC right now.

Why do you say that?

 

[surreal1221]

PM.

 

[Baronman]

We don't have time to play these "we'll see you in 2 years" games.

Why not? What's the rush?

I like the analogy someone make above..Delta may have the Cadillac of PBS, Peanuckle has the Daewoo.....Which one do you think ASA would get?

 

[derg]

As usual, it seems to be a mixed bag - several peeps mentioned Delta as a 'good' example. Any Delta guys want to chime in?

I like OUR PBS.

BUT we've got a system of checks and balances and have actual pilots that confirm and verify the results and have the authority to tell the company to "run it again" on certain categories.

Without oversight and the authority to tell the company to re-run it, PBS sucks.

 

[higney85]

We used to have an option to avoid being paired with a check airmen on paper bids. The guys that wanted to pay the "bought off roullete (I'm looking at YOU Ken)" could throw their hat in and try to get paired with a check airmen. Those of us that wanted to fly, could avoid them. Now, if you want to fly, you need every check airman's employee number and put them in your "don't pair me with" preference. Down side is, now you have to rank THAT over days off, commutability, etc. With the way our buy out works here, if you live in base, it's awesome. If you're a commuter, you just lost money if you get bought off since it puts you sitting de-facto reserve.

Example: Frank the FO gets a sweet commutable 4 day. Let's say frank commutes from TUL-MEM. Unfortunately, Frank gets bought off since he's paired with a check airman. Now, instead of having the company pay for his hotels while he's on his trip, Frank now has to commute from TUL-MEM and wait for a phone call for EACH of his 4 days. He's on call from 90 minutes prior to his show EACH DAY until his show time. Which means if his show time was 1 pm on day one, scheduling can call him between 11:30 am and 1 pm to assign him a trip. If they haven't called him by 1, he's done for the day. Now, on day 2, he was supposed to be in SHV with a show time of 5 am. Instead, he's in a hotel or crash pad in MEM on his own dime hoping scheduling will assign him something from 3:30 am-5 am so he doesn't have to pay for a hotel/crash pad for the next two days. Rinse repeat.

If you live in base, it's a sweet deal since scheduling can only call you for 90 minutes. If they call you before or after, they missed their window and can go suck eggs. For commuters, it's a nightmare.

There is only 1 positive about us not hiring. I don't get bought off! O the beauty of QOL.

 

[surreal1221]

We don't have time to play these "we'll see you in 2 years" games.

Oh yeah - can't believe I missed this.

How do you figure we don't have time to play these games?

First, it's not a game. It's a Collective Bargaining Agreement, negotiated by the Association and the Company.

It's a contract for a reason, follow it.

Game? No honest adult working in this business would ever consider anything related to it as being a "game."

 

[MQAAord]

PBS can be great, and PBS can suck.

It depends entirely on how it's implemented.

Bill worked under a really great PBS system at TWA. But he and all the other TWA guys who went to DL have had a hard time convincing the DL guys who worked under the really sucky PBS system in the old Delta Express operation that it can be good...

 

[kellwolf]

I say when ever the PWG has finished its report, the MEC sits down and negotiates with management. Why wait too years for contract improvements when we can get it now?

Contradiction alert. You said now is not the time to be militant, but for some reason think you'll be able to get contract IMPROVEMENTS? If you can get improvements on your contract, then you've got leeway to be militant. Like Josh said, sticking to the agreement and waiting 2 years isn't exactly militant. Apparently you can get away with a whole lot of stuff and not be deemed bargaining in bad faith by the NMB.....at least, there's a lot of precedent for that in the past several years. If you guys need ammo for that, I can give you some......

 

[surreal1221]

Talking points regarding PBS at my company.

This was a response to a pm about how to fight PBS. I'm posting it because it can benefit everyone.

Regarding PBS, the way to fight it is man to man (grassroots). Talk to everyone you know, and task them to talk to everyone they know. Here are some talking points:

1. With PBS if you are in the bottom 50% of the seniority list by aircraft and seat, then PBS will hurt you, not help you.

2. If the above applies and you commute, plan on moving to 'da ATL. Bidding a commutable line will be impossible.

3. It will make ASA more efficient, requiring less pilots (less reserve activity). Look for the "no furlough clause" in the contract to be quietly modified so that pre DOS pilots can be furloughed. I would say about the bottom 500 should be worried if it passes.

4. Say goodbye to extending your vacation.

5. Say goodbye to flying with the same person all month. FOs will enjoy learning the idiosyncrasies of a new captain every trip.

1 and 3 should hit most of the ASA crowd here.

Unlike some, I'm in no rush to speed up my company's ability to send me to the street. If that's being militant, than so be it.

 

[kellwolf]

About the only one I disagree with is #2. It's possible, but odds are for any kind of decent commutable line, you're gonna have to have some seniority. Lower seniority guys are gonna be giving up days off in exchange for commuting. #1 is probably true up and down the list. I know the top 3-5 guys in MEM don't get near the kind of schedules they used to. Some, for some mysterious reason, even see some of the stuff in their preferences go to junior guys. #3 is true, at least here, since the crew utilization point and cost savings for the company here is why they're fighting us so hard on the contract negotiations dealing with PBS. #4 possible. Depends on you contract terms dealing with vacation. I know it's not near as good here as it was pre-PBS. #5 is true unless you get mad lucky.

 

[Trip7]

Oh boy. Surreal all those things would happen if the company not only forced PBS but also implemented other things on their own that would never get pilot approval. The DOS clause "quietly" disappearing? Is this person kidding? How would something like that go away quietly? If that went away it would have to be something massive that the company offered the senior pilots in exchange for PBS.

It does not hurt at all to go to the table and negotiate. We might be able to get something positive out of it. If they don't like the direction its going, walk away and save further negotiations for contract time.

 

[SoCalAprch]

About the only one I disagree with is #2. It's possible, but odds are for any kind of decent commutable line, you're gonna have to have some seniority. Lower seniority guys are gonna be giving up days off in exchange for commuting. #1 is probably true up and down the list. I know the top 3-5 guys in MEM don't get near the kind of schedules they used to. Some, for some mysterious reason, even see some of the stuff in their preferences go to junior guys. #3 is true, at least here, since the crew utilization point and cost savings for the company here is why they're fighting us so hard on the contract negotiations dealing with PBS. #4 possible. Depends on you contract terms dealing with vacation. I know it's not near as good here as it was pre-PBS. #5 is true unless you get mad lucky.

This for some reason happens every now and then. Does PCL have a union sked committee that you can call if your trips or days off went to someone junior? This happened to me this month and one phone call and it was fixed the next day.