Who likes PBS?

[Hootie]

At Skywest its good when times are slow and its an utter ass raping when times are fast, but at least the pay checks are good. PBS is way better than a Chuck Norris roundhouse to the teeth.

 

[higney85]

Re: Examples

Soon I will use this system.

Can anyone paste an example of the bid that they usually use for PBS? I have never used the layering system that it features and many people say the first few months using it can be challenging as you get to know what works and what doesn't at the seniority you bid at.

Thanks.

AVOID Trips > 3 days (medium)
AVOID weekends (medium)
AVOID pairing class C (low) *these are highspeeds at this company*
AVOID deadheads (low)
AVOID turns > 3 hours (low)



I reserve HIGH priority for the few days off each month I must have (such as holidays, birthdays, personal trips, etc.)

Works well for me but I couldn't hold what I asked for since I hit about the top 25% in the list for my seat. As always your results may vary.

 

[gtpilot]

As usual, it seems to be a mixed bag - several peeps mentioned Delta as a 'good' example. Any Delta guys want to chime in?

 

[SoCalAprch]

PREFER OFF Saturday
PREFER OFF Friday
PREFER OFF Sunday
AWARD Charters if on Thursday
AWARD Reserve Sequence
AWARD Trips


This gets me my weekends off and a Nationwide Insurance charter on Thursday that is done by 10 am. So with this bid I sit reserve Monday through Wednesday from 0300 to 1500 and I know that at 10:00 am on Thursday I have the rest of the weekend off. They also can't really mess with you on Wednesday because you need to be back in base 10 hours before the charter on Thursday. I bid this because I wanted to sit around and be a bum for a couple months. Only worked 3 reserve days and did the charter every Thursday so far this month. Also haven't spent a single night in a hotel! :rawk:

Also I think at RAH the company controls it but we have union reps in each base that can log into PBS as administrators and work with the company to get things changed. PBS screwed up my bid a couple months ago and gave a bunch of junior people weekends off when I didn't get any. I called our Union's Sked Committee and within a day I had every weekend off.

 

[Baronman]

PREFER OFF Saturday
PREFER OFF Friday
PREFER OFF Sunday
AWARD Charters if on Thursday
AWARD Reserve Sequence
AWARD Trips

That looks nice but let's take ASA. They have one base right Atlanta? I wonder how many FOs would have bids that looked like..."Friday- Off; Sat- Off; Sun - Off; Braves Charter -Award, Late Starts- Award."

 

[surreal1221]

Just say no.

Tell our union reps we will see the Company in TWO Years.

We're getting duped into thinking we must have PBS NOW, after they took away FLiCA and brought in their crappy CrewBid system.

We shouldn't even be having this talk with the company right now.

As far as Delta's PBS, it's the damn Cadillac of PBS because their pilot group actually has some bargaining chips when it comes to the Company? You want us to be friendly in this merger? You want us to work with YOU in this merger? More importantly, the pilot group controls it (as far as I know), not the company. Do we really trust our management team to give us the same benefits and tools available to mainline Delta pilots? Come on. Get what I'm saying?

We will not get the Cadillac PBS system, we'll get the damn Daewoo PBS system.

Why the hell we are even talking about this right now, especially coming from the two junior union reps at our company is beyond me. Each new development it clearly shows to me that they lack the feel of the pilot group.

 

[SoCalAprch]

That looks nice but let's take ASA. They have one base right Atlanta? I wonder how many FOs would have bids that looked like..."Friday- Off; Sat- Off; Sun - Off; Braves Charter -Award, Late Starts- Award."

True didn't think about that. It would suck to be bidding against every FO in the company.

 

[MusketeerMan]

Re: Examples

Soon I will use this system.

Can anyone paste an example of the bid that they usually use for PBS? I have never used the layering system that it features and many people say the first few months using it can be challenging as you get to know what works and what doesn't at the seniority you bid at.

Thanks.

Well, you asked....I give the system a crapload of requests to build me a line, so it will usually always be able to build me a line...

AWARD trip C7615

AWARD trip C7618

AWARD day trips 3 IF AVG daily credits > 06:30hrs IF checkout time < 18:00L

AWARD day trips 3 IF AVG daily credits > 06:00hrs IF checkout time < 18:00L

AWARD day trips 3 IF AVG daily credits > 05:30hrs IF checkout time < 18:00L

AWARD day trips 3 IF AVG daily credits > 05:00hrs IF checkout time < 18:00L

AWARD day trips 3 IF AVG daily credits > 06:30hrs

AWARD day trips 3 IF AVG daily credits > 06:00hrs

AWARD day trips 3 IF AVG daily credits > 05:30hrs

AWARD day trips 4 IF AVG daily credits > 06:30hrs IF checkout time < 18:00L

AWARD day trips 4 IF AVG daily credits > 06:00hrs IF checkout time < 18:00L

AWARD day trips 4 IF AVG daily credits > 05:30hrs IF checkout time < 18:00L

AWARD day trips 4 IF AVG daily credits > 05:00hrs IF checkout time < 18:00L

AWARD day trips 4 IF AVG daily credits > 06:30hrs

AWARD day trips 4 IF AVG daily credits > 06:00hrs

AWARD day trips 4 IF AVG daily credits > 05:30hrs

AWARD day trips 2 IF AVG daily credits > 06:00hrs

AVOID day trips 1

AWARD TRIPS

 

[SIUAv8r]

This is what I typically (except the days off)bid. I sit around 45 out of 100 in base. Occasionally I'll bid for specific trips, but usually I just keep it simple. I got 16 days off and 82 hours this month with this.

SET MIN SKED

PREFER OFF 17Nov-18Nov

PREFER OFF 22Nov

PREFER OFF 27Nov

AVOID day trips 1

AWARD AVG daily credits >= 06:30hrs

AWARD AVG daily credits >= 06:00hrs

AWARD TRIPS

 

[Polar742]

I had about 4.5 years of line bidding and PBS each.

Each can rock and each can suck.

Crappy pairings = crappy lines PBS or no PBS

Crappy scheduling/bid rules in the CBA = crappy pairings and lines

If you use line bidding, you use the rules constructed to help you win.

PBS is a computer system. It works within the parameters and logic in the system.

If you can understand an automated plane, you can understand PBS. I'm a complete doofus with any real world knowledge (ask Jason from the starship thread, he'll confirm that) and I figured it out.

Crap ass lines and pairings are not the result of PBS, they are the result of crappy contracts (or lack of)

/rant

Sorry about the soapbox....

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

:yeahthat:Spot on. But most pilots will cringe and say hell no when asked about PBS without even considering the options.

If you did some more research, you would be saying "hell no" also. This was something I dealt with extensively as a member of the PCL MEC, and it can be a complete nightmare.

On the other hand, ASA is already massively overstaffed, PBS could be the kiss of death for many of us junior peeps....

Massively overstaffed? What are you basing this on? Management's word?

Paper bidding here gave us WAAAAY more control over the QoL issues than PBS does. Ken's already pointed out the bad ones. I had vacation last month, and I got a whopping 15 days off for the whole month with vacation. It even counted two days on part of my vacation as normal days off. With paper bidding, I coulda strung those days together and gotten close to 14 in a ROW rather than the 7 I wound up with.

I once got 22 days off in a row with line bidding/vacation slide at Pinnacle. Granted, I was the number 5 copilot in DTW, but still, even #1 wouldn't be able to pull that off with PBS.

Why did this SteveC guy edit my post?

It was linked to a huge thread on what was wrong with PBS in the APA pilots minds?

Was it some sort of, don't link to other websites here because we are too cool for school?

Looking at his profile, he isn't even involved with airlines, so what is his beef? Does he even understand what this topic is about?

So lame, censorship over nothing. Wonderful.


Nevermind, here is the reason when I click on the link!

I've been complaining about this stuff for a while, so I feel your pain. You'll get nowhere, though.

Just say no.

Tell our union reps we will see the Company in TWO Years.

We're getting duped into thinking we must have PBS NOW, after they took away FLiCA and brought in their crappy CrewBid system.

We shouldn't even be having this talk with the company right now.

777, listen to this man. He's absolutely right. Unless ASA management is willing to sit down and talk about extra stuff they're willing to give you, then you have no incentive to talk with them. Or better yet, sit down and start talking with them, and then stonewall for 5.5 years. Give them a dose of their own medicine.

As far as Delta's PBS, it's the damn Cadillac of PBS

Delta has Navtech, if I remember right, which is really the only non-proprietary PBS system on the market that is any good. NWA has Airware, which is great, but that's proprietary. But even with Navtech, you still need a book of parameters agreed to that's about 200 pages long. When we developed a PBS parameters protocol at PCL, it was longer than our entire contract. Without that, PBS will screw you over, no matter what software you have.

 

[kellwolf]

I once got 22 days off in a row with line bidding/vacation slide at Pinnacle. Granted, I was the number 5 copilot in DTW, but still, even #1 wouldn't be able to pull that off with PBS.

Heh, if you run into JH in ATL (he's down there flying the -900 now), ask him about how well PBS is working out for the #1 guy on the seniority list. He'll probably have a stroke halfway through the rant, though. Which is okay, I guess, since I'll move up one on the list.

Our PBS system might actually work better if the company would pay for the pairing generator that goes with it rather than force feeding it crap every month. At least they're finally getting to within an hour or so of the awards being contractually compliant. When the PBS first went "live" we were getting our bid awards about 48+ hours after they closed rather than the 24 required by the contract. With paper bidding, you normally had your line a few hours after the bids closed. Now we get a 'The solutions are running. No further updates' message for about a day or so.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Heh, if you run into JH in ATL (he's down there flying the -900 now), ask him about how well PBS is working out for the #1 guy on the seniority list. He'll probably have a stroke halfway through the rant, though. Which is okay, I guess, since I'll move up one on the list.

I loved flying with Joe. Nothing but management-bashing for leg after leg. Good times.

 

[gtpilot]

Massively overstaffed? What are you basing this on? Management's word?

There are ~375 lines with about 75hrs average on the FO side for the -200 and there are still 150 of us on reserve. Come January, the numbers will get a bit worse, so we are massively overstaffed. Management has made no such statement yet.

 

[Trip7]

There are ~375 lines with about 75hrs average on the FO side for the -200 and there are still 150 of us on reserve. Come January, the numbers will get a bit worse, so we are massively overstaffed. Management has made no such statement yet.

The loss of the ATRs with no replacement is killing us right now.

PCL, management over here even put it politely. They said we'll be "alittle fat" this fall but that they are looking into other proactive ways to cut cost besides furloughing pilot.

 

[OldTownPilot]

One more thing, of course depending on the contract.

At CAL the FO part of trip that is awarded to a check airman is 'hidden' from FO to bit it. Back with hard lines the old man had to work for 3 days in a span of 5 months just to get landing current, by bidding the FO half of a check airmans line. Now of course he is a Captain, but with PBS he never had a trip bought for IOE as an FO.

 

[kellwolf]

One more thing, of course depending on the contract.

At CAL the FO part of trip that is awarded to a check airman is 'hidden' from FO to bit it. Back with hard lines the old man had to work for 3 days in a span of 5 months just to get landing current, by bidding the FO half of a check airmans line. Now of course he is a Captain, but with PBS he never had a trip bought for IOE as an FO.

We used to have an option to avoid being paired with a check airmen on paper bids. The guys that wanted to pay the "bought off roullete (I'm looking at YOU Ken)" could throw their hat in and try to get paired with a check airmen. Those of us that wanted to fly, could avoid them. Now, if you want to fly, you need every check airman's employee number and put them in your "don't pair me with" preference. Down side is, now you have to rank THAT over days off, commutability, etc. With the way our buy out works here, if you live in base, it's awesome. If you're a commuter, you just lost money if you get bought off since it puts you sitting de-facto reserve.

Example: Frank the FO gets a sweet commutable 4 day. Let's say frank commutes from TUL-MEM. Unfortunately, Frank gets bought off since he's paired with a check airman. Now, instead of having the company pay for his hotels while he's on his trip, Frank now has to commute from TUL-MEM and wait for a phone call for EACH of his 4 days. He's on call from 90 minutes prior to his show EACH DAY until his show time. Which means if his show time was 1 pm on day one, scheduling can call him between 11:30 am and 1 pm to assign him a trip. If they haven't called him by 1, he's done for the day. Now, on day 2, he was supposed to be in SHV with a show time of 5 am. Instead, he's in a hotel or crash pad in MEM on his own dime hoping scheduling will assign him something from 3:30 am-5 am so he doesn't have to pay for a hotel/crash pad for the next two days. Rinse repeat.

If you live in base, it's a sweet deal since scheduling can only call you for 90 minutes. If they call you before or after, they missed their window and can go suck eggs. For commuters, it's a nightmare.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

There are ~375 lines with about 75hrs average on the FO side for the -200 and there are still 150 of us on reserve. Come January, the numbers will get a bit worse, so we are massively overstaffed. Management has made no such statement yet.

I know a few guys sitting reserve on the 200 that have flown 8-10 hours this month.

But yes guys...management is the devil, so we can't possibly actually be overstaffed....

 

[Trip7]

After Brad's latest update it doesn't seem like we'll be furloughing anytime soon. ASA continues to run in the black, and Skywest is very stable financially.

 

[surreal1221]

And yet CT's little memo indicates otherwise - in my mind.

There is no doubt in my mind we are overstaffed, and I don't really need management to tell me we are obese.

I'm left with a feeling that our company will be left without a seat to sit in post-merger. Especially when the contract language restricts us to being one of the two lowest cost DCI companies in Atlanta. I have no doubt that daddy Delta will make an attempt to bring in a lower operating cost company following the merger (Colgan), hence bumping us out of the two low cost column, making us third or even fourth. By that happening, Delta is no longer obligated to provided 80% of the DCI flying to us.

Sucks. . .and I'd hate to have to be quoted here in a few months, but that's what I'm expecting. We have a senior pilot group, and not nearly as senior as to have us with a large number of retirements. Delta hiring in the next few months is a pipe dream. Divine intervention will be required to keep some of us off the street.