Wheee!

[moxiepilot]

Fun ferrying a 172SP yesterday at 18:00z from OQN to LOM, arrival at 18:40z:

KLOM 011902Z AUTO 07014G22KT 4SM OVC005 03/02 A2994
KPHL 011759Z 011818 10011G22KT 2SM +RA BR OVC008 WS020/16050KT

PIREPS:

OQN UUA /OV PHL270010 /TM 1607 /FL025 /TP CRJ2 /TB SEV
PHL UA /OV PHL /TM 1745 /FL080 /TP A319 /TA 15 /TB LGT CHOP /RM SFC-080
PHL UA /OV PHL270003 /TM 1845 /FLUNKN /TP E170 /TB MOD SFC-010

Flew GPS to mins, wrung out my shirt, cleaned my pants and headed home for a beer

 

[BobDDuck]

Sounds fun.

I'm am SO glad I called in sick yesterday. I was supposed to do turns out of PHL and DCA all day long.

The PIREP for SEV TB sort of annoys me though. Half the captains I fly with don't understand that sever turbulence should really be doing damage to the airframe. Maybe this person did really get hit hard, but I wonder if they returned to PHL (or were landing there anyways) to get MX to look at the airframe.

 

[moxiepilot]

Agreed. While I was flying at a slightly different time, and planned the flight very carefully because of the conditions, waiting for the right window, the most turbulence I encountered was maybe moderate in a 172, continuous light but not rocked (thank goodness)

 

[IPad (10)]

Is there any reason the flight could not have waited until today when the weather was perfect? No offense, I know you are a smart guy, but 500 overcast, 3*C on the ground, heavy rain, reports of moderate turbulence by airliners and a 172 do not really mix. Can you imagine what people would have thought of you if you hadn't made it? I would not have considered flying yesterday in a turbine, let alone a 172. Do not take this personally, I am not attacking you, just trying to figure out your reasons.

Alex.

 

[Ian_J]

Is there any reason the flight could not have waited until today when the weather was perfect? No offense, I know you are a smart guy, but 500 overcast, 3*C on the ground, heavy rain, reports of moderate turbulence by airliners and a 172 do not really mix. Can you imagine what people would have thought of you if you hadn't made it? I would not have considered flying yesterday in a turbine, let alone a 172. Do not take this personally, I am not attacking you, just trying to figure out your reasons.

Alex.

I'd like to figure out your reasons for why you wouldn't do it in a turbine, Alex. (Not attacking you either )

And the only issue I see with Moxie's flight was the icing potential - but he's an experienced guy so I'm sure his picture of the weather was complete.

Otherwise: LIFR - Awesome!
Rain - It's just rain!
Mod Turbulence - Sucks, but flyable.

 

[IPad (10)]

I'd like to figure out your reasons for why you wouldn't do it in a turbine, Alex. (Not attacking you either )

And the only issue I see with Moxie's flight was the icing potential - but he's an experienced guy so I'm sure his picture of the weather was complete.

Otherwise: LIFR - Awesome!
Rain - It's just rain!
Mod Turbulence - Sucks, but flyable.

I am a low time, business and pleasure pilot, flying single pilot, in an old airplane, out of small, uncontrolled airports with no percision approaches. There is no reason at all for me to be out messing with a weather system like we had yesterday, none at all. For me delaying a flight one day means nothing more than one less day at the beach. Chances are the weather would be crappy enough that I would not to want to be at the beach anyway!

Not only that, but it means a much more comfortable ride for my passengers. Their comfort is second only to their saftey. I know they would hate to be flown through heavy rain, ice, and turbulence when the next day, today, was one of the nicest days of winter.

Do not get me wrong, I have no problem flying in IMC (I've got about 250 hours of actual time). But there will be ten or fifteen days a year, like yesterday, where this is just no way for me to justify flying anything other then a jet. Personally I do not find LIFR to be "awesome". Again I have no problem flying an ILS to minimums and have done it many times in the past. But I would much perfer a beautiful day where I can just sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight.

And unless the weather is perfect, no one ever has a complete view of the weather until they are in the air. Sadly, it is then when many pilots find out their guess on the ground was wrong.

Alex.

 

[Ian_J]

I am a low time, business and pleasure pilot, flying single pilot, in an old airplane, out of small, uncontrolled airports with no percision approaches. There is no reason at all for me to be out messing with a weather system like we had yesterday, none at all. For me delaying a flight one day means nothing more than one less day at the beach. Chances are the weather would be crappy enough that I would not to want to be at the beach anyway!

Not only that, but it means a much more comfortable ride for my passengers. Their comfort is second only to their saftey. I know they would hate to be flown through heavy rain, ice, and turbulence when the next day, today, was one of the nicest days of winter.

Do not get me wrong, I have no problem flying in IMC (I've got about 250 hours of actual time). But there will be ten or fifteen days a year, like yesterday, where this is just no way for me to justify flying anything other then a jet. Personally I do not find LIFR to be "awesome". Again I have no problem flying an ILS to minimums and have done it many times in the past. But I would much perfer a beautiful day where I can just sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight.

And unless the weather is perfect, no one ever has a complete view of the weather until they are in the air. Sadly, it is then when many pilots find out their guess on the ground was wrong.

Alex.

Given your very specific kind of flying, yeah there's no point for you to go in weather like that.

But your initial response almost made it sound like he was choosing to fly in unsafe conditions, which he clearly was not. If you don't have any pax on board, flying in those conditions is an excellent experience builder.

You sound like an exceptionally safe and reserved pilot, which is fantastic. I'm not saying YOU should go out and fly in that weather - or that just anyone should - just that given someone with the proper experience and the proper equipment, that type of weather is just fine.

And Moxie - unless you're a military pilot, it's not an approach to "mins" if the plate calls for a mile visibility and you've got 4.

 

[moxiepilot]

And Moxie - unless you're a military pilot, it's not an approach to "mins" if the plate calls for a mile visibility and you've got 4.

Touche.

A little more background is in order. The window I was waiting for among other things was a decrease in the rain intensity and a careful study of the ride reports and forecasts. One of those forecasts was the winds / temp aloft.

I was banking on the inversion I flew in. 3 degrees at the surface, 3 degrees at 2000' and 7 at 3000 were the actual conditions. If my planning was wrong I would have been seriously screwed. But, that planning is actually why I did the flight.

Had there been any red flag of anything at all that I hadn't thought had changed for my flight for the better, there was no way I would go. I was studying the wx for over 2 hours waiting for the right conditions and would have kept waiting if they did not occur.

So, I don't think you're attacking Alex (CitationKid) - I just never gave you all of the information about my flight. The flight could wait until the next day, but also - the flight could be made safely today.

And Ian - yeah, it was kinda awesome.

But the other part of the story is - this is what a lot of freight doggies do every day, and they do it at night! There's no way I would have tried this flight at night. That would be the straw and the camel's back. I just don't have that kind of skills yet.

So given the whole picture of getting the plane back in the fleet by the weekend was a priority, but there was no pressure to have to get things done if they couldn't be done safely. There was an opportunity to challenge my skills for the flight. And it was only preformed after serious consideration of the weather and safety.

Overall a great experience for me, but would not have done with students or passengers.

 

[IPad (10)]

Thanks for the post Moxie. I understand where you guys are coming from, I'd just like to dicuss this a little more. Think of it this way. Had the same situation happened, some one took off in that weather in a 172, and did not make it. I guarentee you the people on this website would be ripping them apart. Now Moxie made it with no problem, in part due to his planning, in part due to skill, but luck also played a pretty big part in his flight. That is never a good thing.

You sound like an exceptionally safe and reserved pilot, which is fantastic. I'm not saying YOU should go out and fly in that weather - or that just anyone should - just that given someone with the proper experience and the proper equipment, that type of weather is just fine.

The problem I see is that is just that, he did not really have the proper equipment. Moxie literally put his life in the hands of the that tempeture inversion. That is a lot of trust in what normally ends up being an inacturate forcast at best. With the weather being right at mins a missed approach is not really that hard to imagine. Philly would have been unhelpful, at best, after the missed, and it could have been thirty minutes until you were shooting the approach at another airport or even back into LOM. Now all that planning goes out the window. Your hole is gone. The accident chain is starting to link up, quickly. The tempeture drops a little, you run into freezing rain, now you're in trouble.

I understand the expierence aurgment, and agree with it. Every instrument rated pilot should get out and fly in actual IMC as much as possible. But I do not believe days like Friday are the type of day anyone should be building expeirence. Days like that are days only experienced pilots should be out flying. Again, it just seems like an aweful amount of risk to take, just to get the airplane home for the weekend push.

Now Moxie, please don't take this the wrong way. I still respect you and do not think you are idiot, I just feel you may have made a poor decision on this flight. It may just be because I am a pretty reserved pilot, but I have had six friends killed in weather related accident. Had all six of those pilots waited as little as two hours for one guy and at most a day, they would all still be alive today. If you are willing to make the drive down to EVY, you are welcome to fly with me any time.

Alex.

 

[Ian_J]

It may just be because I am a pretty reserved pilot, but I have had six friends killed in weather related accident.

That's remarkable - especially seeing as you're only 19. I guess that explains a lot. Sorry about your losses.

 

[IPad (10)]

That's remarkable - especially seeing as you're only 19. I guess that explains a lot. Sorry about your losses.

It does suck a lot. I have known about ten people killed in aviation accidents and numerous others that have been involved in nonfatal accidents, most dealt with weather or poor decision making. These were all good pilots, but they took these chances often it one day it caught up with them. While I may only be 19, you do have to remember that I have been around pilots and aviation all of my life, so in theory I have about 10 years worth of friends.

Many were close family friends, and to see what the family went through will make you a safer pilot. It really helps you to realize that flying is not that important, certainly not worth taking large amount of risk to do. At the end of the day flying is a relatively low paying job, that, in some cases, can be replaced by taking a management job at Burger King. Flying is already dangerous enough with out taking additional chances.

Obviously some risk has to be acceptable, how much is up to each pilot to decide. I want to die of harden arteries when I am in my eighties, not in a plane, so my amount of risk taking maybe less than others. The other thing I have going against me is my age. No one wants to fly with, or insure a 19 year old in anything larger than a 172. If I get killed or damage an airplane in anyway, I will scar the imagine of young pilots. I would like to atleast try to prove to some people (insurance companies mostly), that not every teenager thinks they are bullet proof and some are worth insuring.

Sorry for getting so off topic,

Alex.

 

[Ian_J]

Maybe it's my good luck, or your bad luck, but I've been actively flying 8 years, five in the military, flew two combat tours, and personally only knew one person who was killed in an aircraft. And he was shot down.

You probably weren't directing it at me or Moxie, but I'm sure we don't need a safety sermon. When someone is arguing to fly safer, it's hard to have an argument "against it" without sounding unsafe, when the intent is to really sound practical. I'm willing to bet with experience your own personal minimums will come up a bit, but at any rate, you are right on with your safety attitude.

 

[IPad (10)]

Maybe it's my good luck, or your bad luck, but I've been actively flying 8 years, five in the military, flew two combat tours, and personally only knew one person who was killed in an aircraft. And he was shot down.

That is great and hope it never changes. I do not have any explination as to why I have known so many people killed in airplanes, other then knowing a lot of people. I do seem to have badluck when it comes to aviation, which kind of sucks.

You probably weren't directing it at me or Moxie, but I'm sure we don't need a safety sermon. When someone is arguing to fly safer, it's hard to have an argument "against it" without sounding unsafe, when the intent is to really sound practical. I'm willing to bet with experience your own personal minimums will come up a bit, but at any rate, you are right on with your safety attitude.

I did not mean to preach to you two. With only 1700 hours I would imagine you both are higher time pilots than I am. I think it really all goes back to your training. My father taught me to fly the way I fly and he does it the exact same way. I would love to grow up to be the pilot he is.

This will probally be my last flying job as I really cannot see doing it for another fourty years. That means when I do gain experience, my flying will mostly be for pleasure with family aboard, so I do not imagine my minimums will change much.

The iroinic thing is, even with my conservative attitude, I have only had to cancle one trip in the 1000 hours I have been flying for this company. Many have been delayed by a few hours, but we never lost the utility of the airplane.

Now I am off to go enjoy this 55* weather we are having. I am going to see if I can remember how to land a taildragger!

Alex.

 

[Ian_J]

And for the record - please do not infer I am at all criticizing a conservative attitude - far, far from it. I've had to cancel a 135 freight flight before due to weather despite our "reputation."

 

[moxiepilot]

Sorry - long day out there in good weather

I'd just like to dicuss this a little more.

mmmm k. I like discussing things.

The problem I see is that is just that, he did not really have the proper equipment.

Dual GPS, dual VOR, dual Radios, AP and pitot heat What more could a guy want? he he he. I know what you're getting at - I didn't have boots, weeping wings or the like.

Moxie literally put his life in the hands of the that tempeture inversion. That is a lot of trust in what normally ends up being an inacturate forcast at best.

He is where you and I are going to diverge. Yes, I put some faith in the forecasts, but more of it was based in the nowcasts of PIREPs seeing temp inversions all along the surrounding areas, including from the direction the weather was coming.

With the weather being right at mins a missed approach is not really that hard to imagine...all that planning goes out the window. Your hole is gone.

And that is why a few pilots screw the pooch. They have no exit strategy. And they probably don't have a backup to the back up. My planning was not just for the first leg of a one leg trip. It also included other possible scenerios, including severe clear icing.

Again, it just seems like an aweful amount of risk to take, just to get the airplane home for the weekend push.

There was risk, calculated risk. But at no time will I let pressure or other factors outweigh safety.

Now Moxie, please don't take this the wrong way. I still respect you and do not think you are idiot, I just feel you may have made a poor decision on this flight.

Maybe, maybe not. Got a bag of luck and a bag of experience. I filled up one a little and used a little. Like you I am cautious, believe it or not. I am the biggest pilot wus on the planet.

Obviously some risk has to be acceptable, how much is up to each pilot to decide.

And for the record - please do not infer I am at all criticizing a conservative attitude - far, far from it. I've had to cancel a 135 freight flight before due to weather despite our "reputation."

I third the sentiment. I will never criticize a pilot for a conservative attitude.

Oh yeah, finally - don't take the above information as a defensive stance. I want to give you the info you might be looking for Alex as to why I was okay with going. Would I do it all the time? Hell no. Conditions probably wouldn't be right anyway. But the stars were aligned and who knows - someone else might read this thread and say to them selves, " Self, This might be an example of someone who did something once successfully, then did it again and again because nothing ever happened. Then, it happened."

I think the difference between me and the above thought is that every day, every flight needs to be treated as unique. And just because it was successful this time doesn't mean it would be in the future if the proper precautions are not taken.

 

[IPad (10)]

Fair enough, you did a good job convincing me it was safe. Would I have done it with all that information? Naw, too much like work! I think the part that got my attention was needing to clean your pants, but that was probally just a joke I took too literally (hopefully you did not crap yourself!). I am interested in hearing your plan for severe clear icing. I would imagine that would take a 172 down in a matter of minutes if not less.

Alex

 

[Ian_J]

I think the part that got my attention was needing to clean your pants, but that was probally just a joke I took too literally (hopefully you did not crap yourself!).

Ha!

Sometimes the "clean your pants" feeling is just part of the job, brother! Ever CFI-ed? If so, you know what I mean.

 

[mikecweb]

I clean my pants everytime I wear them.

 

[Ian_J]

I clean my pants everytime I wear them.

I go week to week.