What should a newbe do in prior to entry in 121 world

[dasleben]

I see. I was always curious if minimum fuel was a hard number written somewhere in the release. I know some airlines have a "MIN" listed, but from what I gather that's the minimum fuel they can take off with. And it seems like 1000 lbs over T/O fuel is an awful lot for ramp fuel on an RJ, but I guess it comes in handy with gate/taxi delays.

Much of this is PIC discretion (at least at the companies that haven't taken that away), though there are companies that have hard numbers for min/emergency fuel in their GOMs/FOMs. At my current employer, it's common for the PIC to add a few thousand for contingencies (weather, delays, etc.) beyond release fuel.

 

[BobDDuck]

I see. I was always curious if minimum fuel was a hard number written somewhere in the release. I know some airlines have a "MIN" listed, but from what I gather that's the minimum fuel they can take off with. And it seems like 1000 lbs over T/O fuel is an awful lot for ramp fuel on an RJ, but I guess it comes in handy with gate/taxi delays.

Check out a Bluestreak release next time you see one. RESERVE fuel is the second number listed, right under BURN. Add in any ALT/MSP (if needed), HOLD and that's the TO FUEL number. Below that you get TANKER and TAXI and that's the RAMP fuel. For us, reserve is 45 minutes of gas at FL250. That's not a very practical number considering if we get to our destination and in the flare have to go missed and head somewhere else we aren't going to be anywhere near FL250 the whole way there. It used to be our reserve fuel was always 2000 pounds in the -200. Now it varies based on weight. I've seen a reserve number as low as 1400 pounds before which per the computer will get us 45 minutes but in reality probably won't. We also sometimes tanker fuel if it is cheaper at the departure airport than the destination. That's nice to have because instead of landing with 1500lbs you land with 5000lbs or more. I like that. We went out of GPT two weeks ago and were tanking 6000 pounds. We ended up having to hold due to fog and the GS being down. Dispatch said to hold as long as we could and then divert to Pensacola. I ran the math and we could have held for almost 4 hours, which obviously was not going to happen. Thankfully the GS came up after an hour and we got in with no problems, but if we'd been dispatched with just our basic reserve + ALT/MSP there would have been no way we would have made it in.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

A lot depends on the kind of captains you fly with too. The best captains I flew with would mentor or fly with you as if you were another captain. For example, one would always be like 'Well, its your leg so you make all the decisions. You look over the release, do the captain stuff, etc.' I'm sure if I ever made a really bad decision it would have been vetoed but that never happened, as he was confident enough in his own airmanship and judgement to let me make what were probably mistakes in a somewhat controlled environment.

 

[derg]

Learn to be a chameleon.

Learn to be hyper alert about fuel.

Learn to just let some shizzle go.

Learn the difference between bitching and constructive criticism

 

[ctab5060X]

I've seen a reserve number as low as 1400 pounds before which per the computer will get us 45 minutes but in reality probably won't.

Holy crap! If memory serves, 1.4 was min fuel on the -200 at 9E with 1.0 being emergency fuel. EFOA was generally in the 2.0 to 2.2 range.

With the Saab, we have 825 lbs as reserve fuel every leg. I can turn that into at least an hour, even flying down low.
Our releases actually give us our required fuel at takeoff (Burn + Alternate + Reserve) and a desired fuel number that generally gives us several hundred extra pounds of fuel to play with including our taxi fuel.

 

[EDUC8-or]

It gets interesting when you're underfueled by 200 pounds. If you're not tankering you've lost the ability to hold and flying faster than filed, especially in the climb, that can really affect your burn. I've seen 220 indicated for a cruise speed at 280. ATC loves that when you're leading the pack down Jet 75 south.

That being said the best Captains I flew with were aware but would never get wound up or start to panic. From a sim instructor perspective I can tell you the people who perform poorly time and time again are the types that get so worked up they begin to lose the ability to do their job. I understand it's a stressful situation, but you will be in a simulator a lot more than you want, you need to relax. I often hear "Well I'm not like that in the airplane." and in some cases it's true, but I find it hard to believe. Actually, without going into great detail I KNOW it's not true in many cases.

 

[cmhumphr]

A lot depends on the kind of captains you fly with too. The best captains I flew with would mentor or fly with you as if you were another captain. For example, one would always be like 'Well, its your leg so you make all the decisions. You look over the release, do the captain stuff, etc.' I'm sure if I ever made a really bad decision it would have been vetoed but that never happened, as he was confident enough in his own airmanship and judgement to let me make what were probably mistakes in a somewhat controlled environment.

This ^^. I feel like I learn much more when flying with these kinds of captains.

 

[JordanD]

It gets interesting when you're underfueled by 200 pounds. If you're not tankering you've lost the ability to hold and flying faster than filed, especially in the climb, that can really affect your burn. I've seen 220 indicated for a cruise speed at 280. ATC loves that when you're leading the pack down Jet 75 south.

That being said the best Captains I flew with were aware but would never get wound up or start to panic. From a sim instructor perspective I can tell you the people who perform poorly time and time again are the types that get so worked up they begin to lose the ability to do their job. I understand it's a stressful situation, but you will be in a simulator a lot more than you want, you need to relax. I often hear "Well I'm not like that in the airplane." and in some cases it's true, but I find it hard to believe. Actually, without going into great detail I KNOW it's not true in many cases.

I had an air whiske flight with a fuel order of 5900. I go out, tell him 5.9, he looks me in the eye and repeats 5.9 back to me....5 minutes later the crew calls me in ops. "Hey we need the fueler back, we need 5900 and we only have 4900." Face. Palm.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

It gets interesting when you're underfueled by 200 pounds. If you're not tankering you've lost the ability to hold and flying faster than filed, especially in the climb, that can really affect your burn. I've seen 220 indicated for a cruise speed at 280. ATC loves that when you're leading the pack down Jet 75 south.

That being said the best Captains I flew with were aware but would never get wound up or start to panic. From a sim instructor perspective I can tell you the people who perform poorly time and time again are the types that get so worked up they begin to lose the ability to do their job. I understand it's a stressful situation, but you will be in a simulator a lot more than you want, you need to relax. I often hear "Well I'm not like that in the airplane." and in some cases it's true, but I find it hard to believe. Actually, without going into great detail I KNOW it's not true in many cases.

If we're underfueled by 200 pounds, I'm calling the truck back, as paltry as it sounds.

Relaxed but aware is a very good thing. In fact, it's the best way to be up front.

Much of this is PIC discretion (at least at the companies that haven't taken that away), though there are companies that have hard numbers for min/emergency fuel in their GOMs/FOMs. At my current employer, it's common for the PIC to add a few thousand for contingencies (weather, delays, etc.) beyond release fuel.

The advice in our GOM for "minimum" and "declare an emergency and LAND" is basically how I would roll anyway. 45 min/30 min, respectively. I prefer to touch down with 1 hour onboard.

 

[kellwolf]

If we're underfueled by 200 pounds, I'm calling the truck back, as paltry as it sounds.

Relaxed but aware is a very good thing. In fact, it's the best way to be up front.

This one really depends. What's the weather like en route and at the destination? How much contingency/extra/hold fuel do you have? What's the planned burn on taxi out and what's realistically expected? Is a single engine taxi a possibility to get some of the fuel back?

A lot of times, it would take longer to call the truck back for 200 lbs than is really necessary. We'd routinely have a 400-1000 lb taxi planned outta JFK, but if they're using 31L intersection take offs at KE, you won't even use half of that. Now, if the weather's crap, I don't think they thought about taxi lines and my alternate is about as close as I can get, then I'd call 'em back out.

 

[ATOflyer]

I had an air whiske flight with a fuel order of 5900. I go out, tell him 5.9, he looks me in the eye and repeats 5.9 back to me....5 minutes later the crew calls me in ops. "Hey we need the fueler back, we need 5900 and we only have 4900." Face. Palm.

So the point of this story is that you underfueled them 1,000 pounds? I don't get it.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

This one really depends. What's the weather like en route and at the destination? How much contingency/extra/hold fuel do you have? What's the planned burn on taxi out and what's realistically expected? Is a single engine taxi a possibility to get some of the fuel back?

A lot of times, it would take longer to call the truck back for 200 lbs than is really necessary. We'd routinely have a 400-1000 lb taxi planned outta JFK, but if they're using 31L intersection take offs at KE, you won't even use half of that. Now, if the weather's crap, I don't think they thought about taxi lines and my alternate is about as close as I can get, then I'd call 'em back out.

Ah, but each wing tank only holds 2866 lb

And we don't single engine taxi ("Prolonged ground operation above flight idle significantly increases propeller stress, especially in adverse wind conditions...").

 

[JordanD]

So the point of this story is that you underfueled them 1,000 pounds? I don't get it.

The point of the story is I told the fueler to his face to put 5900 onboard and after he acknowledged me he still underfueled them. I thought it was worth a chuckle.

 

[dasleben]

If we're underfueled by 200 pounds, I'm calling the truck back, as paltry as it sounds.

That's a decent way to become "That Guy" if you don't actually need the extra 200 lbs.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

That's a decent way to become "That Guy" if you don't actually need the extra 200 lbs.

What do you mean, "become"?

They usually verify before they disconnect, so it's hardly ever an issue.

 

[falconvalley]

Bonus study:

You're flying with a new captain. The single point is deferred. The fueler walks up and asks if you can transfer fuel (can't without maintenance). They forgot to divide the gallons by 2. The captain looks at you.

 

[dasleben]

Bonus study:

You're flying with a new captain. The single point is deferred. The fueler walks up and asks if you can transfer fuel (can't without maintenance). They forgot to divide the gallons by 2. The captain looks at you.

"Where's the mechanic?"

Is there something more to this question?

 

[cmhumphr]

That's a decent way to become "That Guy" if you don't actually need the extra 200 lbs.

That may be true, but what happens when you have an unexpected ATC delay going into Newark? Or you have a maintenance issue that doesn't necessarily require to go back to the gate, but chill on the ramp while you call dispatch and maintenance control to figure it out. On the flip side of the coin, that 200 lbs could keep a cockpit jumpseater from getting on.

 

[dasleben]

That may be true, but what happens when you have an unexpected ATC delay going into Newark? Or you have a maintenance issue that doesn't necessarily require to go back to the gate, but chill on the ramp while you call dispatch and maintenance control to figure it out. On the flip side of the coin, that 200 lbs could keep a cockpit jumpseater from getting on.

What's the total fuel capacity and idle fuel burn? I guess I need some perspective on the impact 200 lbs has.

 

[cmhumphr]

What's the total fuel capacity and idle fuel burn? I guess I need some perspective on the impact 200 lbs has.

Our taxi fuel is 80% of the time 200 lbs, not much at all if we are full, and don't have room to spare if we are sitting on the ramp cutting into our MIN / TO fuel.

Ah wait, it might help if I add that I'm not on a jet. Total capacity is 5,678 pounds on the Dash 8.