What should a newbe do in prior to entry in 121 world

bcpilot11

Well-Known Member
"What should a new hire do in preparation for entry to the 121 world......."
I was reading in another thread, experiences posted by a captain about his flying with newbie FO's. That prompted me to start this thread & Looking to get tips & advice that should help me & people like me who have no prior turbine experience & looking to break into the 121 world, so that the captain doesn't feel he is flying with a DUMBO.

This was originally posted by BobDDuck; I have included his comments in the quoted text.....

The issues range from frustrating to scary to just amusing.

On the frustrating end, I've had FOs who have no sense of keeping track of fuel. See, down here at companies that don't actually make money hand over fist and don't have a mainline partner that pays for their gas, we tend to get dispatched with min fuel all the time. It's not usual to see about 1:15 of fuel available on landing. That may sound like a lot, but when you consider about 1/4th of that is actually unusable during pitch up maneuvers of above 8 degrees or so (ie, a normal go around) it's actually not that much. There have been several times where the FO showed not comprehension that we were in a situation where if one thing went wrong (getting a 360 vector off of BUNTS in PHL and getting slow to 170 knots requiring flaps coming out) we could be in trouble as far as fuel goes. Sure, a simple "unable" or "min fuel" may solve that problem, but without prompting, they'd have had no idea.

I did a flight three months ago where there was a large line of convective weather. We found a hole to slip through and the FO was flying much closer to the upwind cell than the downwind cell (which were both about the same size). We talked about it for a bit and I realized he had no concept of the fact that that the winds aloft will carry turbulence, hail and other nastiness away from a storm and giving the upwind cell a wider berth than the downwind cell is probably a better idea.

A more scary event (and this was with a 250 hour wonder hired in 2008, so not a recent "weak" new hire) involved a guy flying a visual approach from about 10 miles out, where he was vectored in underneath the glideslope. He was then cleared to a lower altitude but somehow managed to set the altitude bug for an altitude above us. He commanded the autopilot to start descending to the "lower" altitude, but with the bug set above us, the plane would never capture and we'd just continue down until we hit the ground. He armed the approach at the same time and we got horizontal capture of the localizer but with the GS well above us, that would never capture. I told him what had happened but he was SO lost that he didn't understand the situation. We were about 8 miles out at 1500 feet and I finally told him just to hand fly. He dumped the autopilot but still followed the FD downward. I finally told him to look out the window at the runway and PAPI (which had been in sight this entire time) and he didn't understand why there were 4 red when we were still well above the glideslope (which wasn't showing on his display because it was pegged to the top of the screen).

The worst though are guys that just won't take any advice. I try not to ever tell somebody how to fly, especially if they are new. I'll give suggestions, and if asked, critique stuff, but part of the flight instructor mindset I've carried over to the left seat is that the best way for somebody to learn is to make there own mistakes. Obviously there is a limit on how much of a mistake I can let somebody make with 50 or 70 people behind us, but the premise is still the same. Some guys however KNOW they know better than I do and will either just ignore me or even argue that they are doing it the right way. Because of our low fuel dispatch policy we try to do power idle descents a lot. We don't have actual VNAV in the plane so we are reliant on an advisory "snowflake" and out own mental math. I can't remember where we were going, but it was someplace out on the Gulf Coast and they gave us a discretionary descent from FL360 down to 4000 feet. We had about 150 knots of wind against us at altitude but I knew from the lower level wind readouts (and the surface wind at the airport) we were going to lose that along the way down. The FO set up for a 4.0 degree descent which is a bit steeper than our normal 3.0 rate but works out to a power idle descent some times. I told him that wind the winds decreasing our ground speed would increase as we descended and our required descent rate would increase. He just said "I've got it". He waited until the required descent rate was about 3800fpm and then started down. Of course the wind dropped about 100 knots at 30,000 feet and the required rate went to 4500fpm which meant he needed spoilers to keep the speed back (not a big deal in bigger planes but not really needed with good planing in the RJ) and was pinning the passengers to the ceiling for 20,000 feet. After we landed (we had to do a 360 to get down as well) he blamed the plane for being "slow to descend".

And on the funny side, I've had, on two occasions, an FO keep about 300 knots through 10K because approach as said "max forward airspeed" and he assumed this waived the 250 requirement. I also had an FO ask if the label that said "ditch" on a Jepp 10-9 plate was where they wanted you to ditch the airplane if you couldn't make the runway for some reason.

There are lots of really smart FOs out there and I fully expect that a new guy who isn't familiar with the operation and the aircraft is going to take a little hand holding at first. However, what I don't like is that when I brief an oddball approach down to mins and look over and ask if he's got any questions or additions, to see a glazed over expression on his face and realize that this is the first time he's ever for real shot a VOR approach with multiple stepdowns. I don't like when we are holding and I'm trying to figure out our bingo fuel numbers to feel like that guy in the other seat can't back up my equations because he has no concept of diverting and just sits there and shrugs when I ask if the number looks about right. I hate having a strange MX situation arise in flight and start talking through systems with the guy and realize that despite him passing a systems oral he really doesn't understand the hydraulic system at even a basic level and I am pretty much talking to myself.
 
I'd start thinking about descent planning. I had a great instructor in the GA world that spent time explaining 3 degree descents and how to descend at that rate factoring the wind and using your groundspeed. It's helped me to this day as a good backup to the aircraft's VNAV. It's still quite common to fly with seasoned pilots who still don't have a grip on it...When rushed they usually act hastily because they feel like they might get caught high.

Also start considering visual approaches. Try to imagine yourself 10 miles out at 3 or 4 thousand feet and cleared for a visual. Make a nice constant decent in, configure as needed to slow down in time but not so early as to be way out there early configured.

These are just some things we do day in and out...
 
There's a book, called "Everything Explained for the Professional Pilot". Buy it. Read it. Understand it. In comparison to ALL the books I have ever owned (Jeppeson, Gleim, etc), it has been the most useful. It has a slew of formulas like Baronman mentioned above that are extremely useful. Good luck!
 
The airline will train you on the airplane you will be flying. What they won't do is teach or re-teach basic instrument rules and flying! They assume you already know that stuff and they probably have tested you during the interview.

Personally, I don't think it matters if you have 250 or 2500 hrs, as long as you have a good ATTITUDE, and you are willing to LEARN and LISTEN!
 
Personally, I don't think it matters if you have 250 or 2500 hrs, as long as you have a good ATTITUDE, and you are willing to LEARN and LISTEN!

I said this in the other post as well. There are many things that new guys aren't going to know. They can't. The airplane is new to them, the operation is new to them and the airports are probably new to them as well. Ground school is designed to get you a basic familiarity with the operation and the aircraft. It won't cover specifics and they will throw so much information at you that you probably won't remember half of it after you pass the test anyway. The sim is for you to get your procedures and profiles down. The sim doesn't fly like the plane and half the time the profiles they teach you in the sim (for example 185knots on the downwind, 170knots on the crosswind and 160 and then ref on final) don't work in the real world. You'll get through IOE and if it's your first jet you'll spend most of the time about 5 miles behind the airplane. And then you get dropped on the line with a captain who isn't being paid to teach you or operate single pilot.

Unless that captain is a dinosaur and can't remember what it was like to be new or just a total ass (we can totally say ass here!) and doesn't care that you are new, they are going to be willing to cut your some slack. That's part of the job, because they know that even if you were a gold star student all through training, you still aren't going to be able to adapt to the pace of line ops right away. However, you are going to have to give 110% until you do catch up. I think most guys, seeing somebody trying really hard to keep up will be fine with it, even if they do make mistakes and get behind.

The stories I was telling were about guys who weren't putting the effort in. They felt like they got through ground school and that's all they have to do. I really didn't mean to say all new guys suck or to scare anybody into being worried about disappointing a captain. As long as you are willing to listen and learn (both what to do from good captains and what not to do from bad ones) you'll be fine.
 
Some really good advice up above.

I don't have much to add, but as a guy about to start training at airline #4 (jeesh, and I'm 29!), the key with flying jets is to not get your head all messed up about the speed, the size, or the weight. More than likely it'll be bigger and faster than anything you've flown before, but it flies like any other airplane. No matter all the stuff going on on the fancy screens in front of you, don't forget to look outside and remember that you're flying an airplane.
 
I also had an FO ask if the label that said "ditch" on a Jepp 10-9 plate was where they wanted you to ditch the airplane if you couldn't make the runway for some reason.

I'm going to start teaching students that. Will be a sure way to tell it was one of my students at an oral :)
 
Personally, I feel like some of the problems reside not only with the pre-airline experience but with the airline experience itself. The airplanes are simple to operate and the SOPs are tailored to keep it that way. If a candidate comes in unprepared, they can still make it through because some Regional training programs are tailored to get you through if you play the right piece, the right way. Then, you get to the line and your experience is dictated not only by what you see, but the person sitting next to you. No offense to those who are done CFIing. Your principles evolve from the right idea, but let's look at reality. CFIing is a job, but the skills used while CFIing are not limited to primary flight schools. Those skills are, and should be, used in all walks of life. So, use them! Of course, if there are serious deficiencies are apparent, please hand the pilot over to the proper authorities. Please don't pass them down the line. They can conceivably make it through and even upgrade in some cases. I've seen it. There are classes full of them. It's not entirely their fault. They were led not only by people who were not good at their job, but also by people who resigned in frustration.

If you want better performance, take a moment and think about how this needs to happen. Is it a line-teachable moment? Is it a foundation problem? Is it a company training issue? Is it personal character?

We're not going to see improvement until these things are focused on. They usually aren't in a constructive way because no one takes personal responsibility to guide these newbies during a critical time. It's the training managers' jobs, but many of them are stuck in abacadaba and autopilot- on, stay in the flight director. We need to help these peeps learn some of the skills they never developed because the entire system failed them. Don't expect things to necessarily improve, either. LSAs give some hope but until we all take responsibility, we will just pass the buck.

I like this thread, though. Lots of good advice and it gives me hope that everybody is taking the initiative, including the newbies :)
 
Biggest thing I can think of "is don't be a pain in the ass." I don't want to have to teach you basic instrument work in the airplane, I don't want to have to hold your hand all the time, show some initiative. When I had an FO - which thankfully was fairly brief, I'm more of a single pilot guy and I know it - the biggest thing that'd set me off would be when I would try to coach the FO through something and the FO would say, "I've got it, I've got it," or some other irritatingly dismissive statement - I wouldn't be telling you this if you weren't screwing the pooch. That or when an FO would fly the airplane so far out of whack but wouldn't even try to correct - that irritated me too, "uh, hey, you're about 5 degrees off on the ILS dude, you need to fly left," especially when it was followed by a "I've got it!" If you're an FO, open your ears more and pay attention to your captain - typically we've "been dere dun dat" before and there's a reason we're trying to coach you.
 
I cannot give much real world advise because I am just finished with training and sim at my first 121 but I can certainly give some pointers as to what helped me through ground school and sim.

First off if your company gave you study material to know before getting to ground school do yourself a favor and know it cold, it wil make your life unquestionably easier throughout the whole process. For me the company gave us limitations, memory action items, and flows to study pre training. They did not give us any systems and I was happy that I fought the impulse to study the aircraft systems before I got there, because the way they were presented in training was far less confusing then it would have been if I tried to self teach. Before training your time is much better spent getting your instrument skills as good as they can be and making sure you know what you need to know as a Commercial Multi pilot. Also make sure to get your life in order (i.e pay your bills, get your finacials straight, resolve any other issues) so you can focus on the training when you get there.

In training take it seriously! Try to absorb as much as you can and ask questions! I was lucky enough to have some really great instructors who took time to explain things and even would spend time with us after class where we could pick up some good pointers along the way. When your out of class study hard. Use highlighting, flash cards, and your classmates to your advantage. Also make sure that you manage your time so that you can take some breaks throughout. Embrace your off day and get away from anything aviation related for a few hours so you dont burn out. Its amazing how much having a couple beers and watching a game will do to re-energize you and re-motivate you. Dont be afraid to go out and have a good time with your classmates just make sure you dont over do it.

With sim one of the biggest keys for me was knowing my profiles before I got there and picking a real solid sim partner. If you and your partner know your stuff and can work effectively as a crew from day one then your time in the sim will be much easier. Once they give you the profiles (probably week 1 in ground school if not sooner) start practicing them with your sim partner until you can do them in your sleep, then have one of your instructors watch you and give you pointers, and keep rehearsing them over and over all through training so that when they kill that engine at v1 on your checkride your brain goes into auto mode and you just do what you need to do.

Good luck!
 
I'm going to start teaching students that. Will be a sure way to tell it was one of my students at an oral :)

Be careful with that. Otherwise you'll get pulled in to the oral by the DPE and have to listen to your student explain the finer points about keeping, grooming and feeding a Deice Monkey for the Seminole.
 
I think an open attitude and a willingness to learn are probably the most important. CAs aren't there to bark at you or let you fly the plane while they read the paper. They're there to mentor you to make you a better CA when it's your turn. I could pretty much make the CRJ do whatever I wanted whenever I wanted after nearly 7 years of flying the darn thing. The E190? It bites me in the ass at least once a trip. It's the same type of flying but it's the subtle differences that will get you when you're new to an airplane. I'm leaning heavily on my CAs right now to impart their knowledge to me in order to make my life easier. The same happened when I went to the CRJ first, and I'm SURE it'll happen when I eventually go to the Airbus.
 
Some really good advice up above.

I don't have much to add, but as a guy about to start training at airline #4 (jeesh, and I'm 29!), the key with flying jets is to not get your head all messed up about the speed, the size, or the weight. More than likely it'll be bigger and faster than anything you've flown before, but it flies like any other airplane. No matter all the stuff going on on the fancy screens in front of you, don't forget to look outside and remember that you're flying an airplane.
In the words of one of my IOE instructors, "It's just an airplane; fly it."
 
Yep! Seeing 160.0 on the fuel display vs. 5.0 made no difference to me. Just an airplane with bigger numbers.
Fuel awareness is good.

If Johnny is flying an airplane which burns 2,200 lb/hour, and planned arrival fuel is 1,689 pounds, what should Johnny do prior to departure?
 
Brings up a question I have... Is reserve fuel on the release basically your bingo fuel, or in reality would you need to declare min fuel way before that so you never touch down with less than reserve? Do you all have the fuel burn rates pretty much memorized or is that in your paperwork somewhere too? From what I've heard about jet flying its not as simple as "we burn such and such per hour, all the time" like you would in GA.
 
Brings up a question I have... Is reserve fuel on the release basically your bingo fuel, or in reality would you need to declare min fuel way before that so you never touch down with less than reserve? Do you all have the fuel burn rates pretty much memorized or is that in your paperwork somewhere too? From what I've heard about jet flying its not as simple as "we burn such and such per hour, all the time" like you would in GA.

We have rules of thumb for average fuel burn, but in a long-haul environment, your weight decreases so much that your burn will be significantly higher at the start than the end of the flight. It's all calculated on the paperwork, so the rule of thumb is more or less a sanity check.

Reserve isn't necessarily "bingo" fuel, but it's generally getting to the point that you need to start getting the jet on the ground quickly (this is particularly true for domestic fuel loads). Most people have a minimum fuel that they'd be comfortable with landing at the alternate, so the fuel load is generally based on that if the reserve fuel on the paperwork is less.
 
We have rules of thumb for average fuel burn, but in a long-haul environment, your weight decreases so much that your burn will be significantly higher at the start than the end of the flight. It's all calculated on the paperwork, so the rule of thumb is more or less a sanity check.

Reserve isn't necessarily "bingo" fuel, but it's generally getting to the point that you need to start getting the jet on the ground quickly (this is particularly true for domestic fuel loads). Most people have a minimum fuel that they'd be comfortable with landing at the alternate, so the fuel load is generally based on that if the reserve fuel on the paperwork is less.
I see. I was always curious if minimum fuel was a hard number written somewhere in the release. I know some airlines have a "MIN" listed, but from what I gather that's the minimum fuel they can take off with. And it seems like 1000 lbs over T/O fuel is an awful lot for ramp fuel on an RJ, but I guess it comes in handy with gate/taxi delays.
 
Brings up a question I have... Is reserve fuel on the release basically your bingo fuel, or in reality would you need to declare min fuel way before that so you never touch down with less than reserve? Do you all have the fuel burn rates pretty much memorized or is that in your paperwork somewhere too? From what I've heard about jet flying its not as simple as "we burn such and such per hour, all the time" like you would in GA.
As dasleben says, it's more complicated in a heavy, but I would sanity check with 2,200lb/hour or so in the EMB 145, and plan to be ON THE GROUND with 2,200 pounds on board.

Where I work we use the following terms:
MINTO or "minimum takeoff" fuel is the minimum FAR fuel to complete the flight, or:
- fuel required to get to the destination plus
- fuel required to get to the most distant alternate airport, if required, plus
- the minimum FAA-mandated reserve fuel.

Minimum takeoff fuel must be on board at thrust lever/power lever advancement for takeoff, or you're going back for more fuel.

Release fuel is MINTO plus contingency, or "gas for Mom." We can use contingency fuel for anything we want. My previous airline called it "hold" fuel (and sometimes "dispatch/captain add" depending on if more was added on top of holding), but in reality we were so skosh most of the time that most of the hold fuel was burned on taxi or during climbout.
 
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