Virgin America pilot payraise

[jtrain609]

Train, as I said, I meant "standard," not average. My mistake, but there is a very big different between the two. Right now, an industry-standard pay rate for an Airbus FO on 3rd year pay is in the $105-$115/hr range. Standard is dictated by the bargaining pattern, not by a math formula.

You're still digging yourself a hole.

You don't mean industry standard, you mean industry leading.

And let's say you did mean industry standard, and this is where I mean about digging yourself a hole; you're saying shut down every A320 operator but Delta and United.

The fundamental reason why your argument misses the mark because ALPA's biggest advantages aren't pay; they're work rules, grievance issues, aeromedical, safety and political lobbying. The reason you want ALPA on property is because they're the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room, and they have the ability to get things done. More than that, they're the specialists.

If you lead with that argument, instead of screaming about how airlines that are below the industry leading wage should be shut down, you wouldn't have so much blowback.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

The fundamental reason why your argument misses the mark because ALPA's biggest advantages aren't pay; they're work rules, grievance issues, aeromedical, safety and political lobbying. The reason you want ALPA on property is because they're the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room, and they have the ability to get things done. More than that, they're the specialists.

Oh, I forgot. Of the carriers that I sampled above, the one with the highest payrate is a non-ALPA carrier.

You are exactly correct, and outside of bargaining the professional services are just incredibly awesome.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You're still digging yourself a hole.

You don't mean industry standard, you mean industry leading.

No, I don't. A clear bargaining pattern is a standard.

And let's say you did mean industry standard, and this is where I mean about digging yourself a hole; you're saying shut down every A320 operator but Delta and United.

No, I'm saying shut them down if the pilots aren't actively working to move themselves into the standard with a union. I have no beef with pilots who are working collectively to bring their CBAs up to the standard. My beef is with people like Cherokee who are just fine with continuing to be the lead weight around the neck of the profession.

The fundamental reason why your argument misses the mark because ALPA's biggest advantages aren't pay; they're work rules, grievance issues, aeromedical, safety and political lobbying. The reason you want ALPA on property is because they're the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room, and they have the ability to get things done. More than that, they're the specialists.

ALPA is a bargaining agent, and a big part of that is pay. In fact, I'd say the biggest part after safety.

 

[jtrain609]

Great.

Keep digging, then.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Your ignorance is showing again. AirTran was paying better than most of the legacies. Even under the NPA contract.

Legacy BANKRUPT wages. In that regards, we at VX were making paying better than United A320 pilots and Continental 737-300/500 pilots, and US Airways A320 pilots. Same argument. Only recently did UAL/CAL obtain their new contract, and apparently US Air got some MOU rates with AA.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

No comparison. Omni is firmly in the industry standard range for ACMI.

And as far as VX moving in the right direction, they aren't moving anywhere until they have a union.

Which shows your true bias against VX. VX could pay $200/hr but they would still be dirt to you until they get unionized.



Yawn

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Train, as I said, I meant "standard," not average. My mistake, but there is a very big different between the two. Right now, an industry-standard pay rate for an Airbus FO on 3rd year pay is in the $105-$115/hr range. Standard is dictated by the bargaining pattern, not by a math formula.

Can you show me your math for industry-standard pay for a 3rd year A320 FO at $105-$115/hr?

I agree with jtrain, and his math is crystal clear. How about yours? I would like to see how you arrived at those numbers you have written.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Can you show me your math for industry-standard pay for a 3rd year A320 FO at $105-$115/hr?

I agree with jtrain, and his math is crystal clear. How about yours? I would like to see how you arrived at those numbers you have written.

As I said, it's not math, it's a bargaining pattern. Look at the new contracts over the last several years.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Which shows your true bias against VX.

I've never claimed to be non-biased. I've been pretty clear, in fact, that I don't respect people who choose to ride union coattails.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

As I said, it's not math, it's a bargaining pattern. Look at the new contracts over the last several years.

Give me your math. Where did you arrive at 105-115/hr for 3rd year pay?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Give me your math. Where did you arrive at 105-115/hr for 3rd year pay?

I'm pretty sure you speak English, so how is "it's not math" difficult for you to understand? It's a bargaining pattern, not a math problem. Look at the recent CBAs, and you'll see the pattern.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I'm pretty sure you speak English, so how is "it's not math" difficult for you to understand? It's a bargaining pattern, not a math problem. Look at the recent CBAs, and you'll see the pattern.

What "pattern" have you looked at to arrive at 105-115/hr? You MUST have eyeballed something?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

What "pattern" have you looked at to arrive at 105-115/hr? You MUST have eyeballed something?

Yes, it's called the pay rate tables in the recently negotiated CBAs. That establishes the industry pattern.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Ah, I see. New United contract has 3rd year A319 FOs at $105/hr and A320 FO at $109/hr, and Delta A320 family 3rd year FO at $114/hr. So that's your definition of "pattern bargaining" rates, AKA, whatever Delta and United have, the two biggest ALPA carriers.

Thanks for dodging the question, but leaving enough clues behind to let me know that whatever the top 2 ALPA legacy carriers have as wage rates, that's the standard.

Sorry man, I'm not that shortsighted. Jtrain has the fairest and most clear mathetical point on what the industry average is. You can talk all you want about "pattern bargaining" but I can guarantee you that if a union comes at JetBlue and/or VX, that United/Delta will NOT be the only two airlines management will look at in bargaining. Say whatever you want, but those are all facts. No point arguing with someone so brainwashed into ALPA leadership.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Yes, it's called the pay rate tables in the recently negotiated CBAs. That establishes the industry pattern.

So what was the industry pattern for A320 just one year ago, when United/Continental and Delta did NOT have their new pilot contracts? Remind me what the industry pattern was then? Let me guess, in your utopia, bankrupt wages "don't count" and you have to look at what those legacy wages would have been if it wasn't for bankruptcy.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It has nothing to do with being the "top 2," it has to do with recency of bargaining and looking at the overall pattern. A few years ago the pattern was established by ALA/HAL/ATN/SPA, with industry standard for SNB equipment being in the $90/hr range for 3rd year pay. More recent negotiations have pushed the standard further upwards. It's a clear pattern, and the non-union carriers aren't keeping up.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

It has nothing to do with being the "top 2," it has to do with recency of bargaining and looking at the overall pattern. A few years ago the pattern was established by ALA/HAL/ATN/SPA, with industry standard for SNB equipment being in the $90/hr range for 3rd year pay. More recent negotiations have pushed the standard further upwards. It's a clear pattern, and the non-union carriers aren't keeping up.

Pretty sure JetBlue was much better than Spirit a couple years ago. But please, don't let facts stop you.

And who are you to speak of pay and pattern bargaining, when you knowingly sacrificed pay for seniority, saying "pay is temporary" and "seniority is forever." That's the USAPA mantra! You voted to create your own B scale and are now making less on the 737 at your airline while others within your corporation are making much more. So it's okay for you to settle for less money when it benefits you?

 

[Soul Brotha']

Good for the VX guys. Us JetBlue guys are pulling for you to make it. I've rode on you guys once and it was great. I sort of get what ATN_Pilot is going for but his approach is wrong. Remember SW was the scum of the majors once, as was jetBlue. We are trying hard here at JB to make things better(myself included as I'm on the 2nd OC here). ATN_Pilot is correct that within a year, ALPA will be on property. VX guys, keep doing what makes you successful and you'll be okay. And of course, I heart Jtrain.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Pretty sure JetBlue was much better than Spirit a couple years ago. But please, don't let facts stop you.

JetBlue has been riding ALPA coattails, as I said. When HAL and ALA signed new deals, JetBlue management raised their pay (still not to the same rate, but higher than they had been) to try to stave off a union drive. The same thing that Skywest management does. Always ride the ALPA coattails, never contribute to the cause.

And who are you to speak of pay and pattern bargaining, when you knowingly sacrificed pay for seniority, saying "pay is temporary" and "seniority is forever." That's the USAPA mantra! You voted to create your own B scale and are now making less on the 737 at your airline while others within your corporation are making much more. So it's okay for you to settle for less money when it benefits you?

What on Earth are you talking about? I voted NO on the second deal, and I vocally opposed both deals. I didn't "settle" for anything. Get your facts straight.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Remember SW was the scum of the majors once

Was?