US Airways Pilots Express Concern Following Publishing of FAA's New Rest Rules
- Thread starter derg
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WacoFan
Bigly
More time zones quicker. Kind of my point about the dynamics of flying east that I learned, but at this point it's largely a dead horse because experience has been out trumped by (she blinded me with) science!
Sure...you say "more time zones quicker" and that is probably the scientific way. My theory is that the sweet, melodious hum of R2800's in the Martin or the Wright 3350's were soothing and made the job more enjoyable and stress free.
So the pistons were slower, and you circadian rhythms didn't get as whacked out. The jets did that - but what about Concorde? Did the excessive speed of the Concorde change the paradigm back to something similar to the pistons where you actually were so fast that jet-lag didn't occur?
I would think that would help put one to sleep, especially if already fatigued.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Shoot, even an O360 will make me doze off.
pullup
Homewrecker
because experience has been out trumped by (she blinded me with) science!
That's exactly how it should be, right?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Read this. Twice. Or is she just another "flightless bird," Doug?
A Life Aloft
Well-Known Member
Good grief. I have been reading this thread and just shaking my head. ATN you are not getting the point of what Doug has tried to say, you have no experience in the type of flying he is referencing and yet you stubbornly just keep dismissing his point, insulting him over and over and refusing to believe the truth. Yes, the truth. I am going to try and make this simple for you.
First of all there have been many, many studies, research, testing and papers published on done on exactly what Doug is trying to tell you. And as you told another poster on here, "Sorry, but I'm not going to dig through the document and copy all of the footnoted sources for you. The rule is available to everyone. You can look through it and find the sources just like I can." So I suggest that you do the same look up in regards to Doug's point.
Transmeridian flights in excess of three time zones, can result in significant disruption of circadian rhythms. PERIOD. When you fly in a westerly direction, your day is lengthened. When you fly east, in the direction of the sun, your day is shortened. It is the psychological time and local time that will vary by several hours. The effects of jet lag are worse from flying west to east as the day is artificially shortened and the symptoms of jet lag are generally worse when flying from west to east BECAUSE the day is artificially shortened. PERIOD. It takes almost one day for every time zone crossed to recover from this lag. Then, if you add in sleep loss to circadian disruption, the effects of each of them is compounded. PERIOD. Perhaps YOU are the one who needs to do more research on the subject since you have no actual experience in this matter, instead of telling others that they are full of crap and that they don't know what they are speaking about when they do. If you cannot grasp this information and refuse to do any research and refuse to believe the truth than that is on you. But you are making yourself look rather foolish in the process.
"Experts" were involved in the new rules as far as the research and recommendations. We all know and understand that. However, the experts did not write the new rules, the government did. And with these new rules, while there are improvements they are not the end all be all that you claim they are. There are now other questions and issues arising and some issues have not been addressed at all. It also remains to be seen how the carriers enact these rules. There are "holes" and questions everywhere.
DE737UPS stated it best:
"It's sad that people have to throw insults here. One reason why the more seasoned folks you all want to hear from don't get involved with places like this."
That goes on far too much on here as far as I am concerned, and it's a loss for everyone.
First of all there have been many, many studies, research, testing and papers published on done on exactly what Doug is trying to tell you. And as you told another poster on here, "Sorry, but I'm not going to dig through the document and copy all of the footnoted sources for you. The rule is available to everyone. You can look through it and find the sources just like I can." So I suggest that you do the same look up in regards to Doug's point.
Transmeridian flights in excess of three time zones, can result in significant disruption of circadian rhythms. PERIOD. When you fly in a westerly direction, your day is lengthened. When you fly east, in the direction of the sun, your day is shortened. It is the psychological time and local time that will vary by several hours. The effects of jet lag are worse from flying west to east as the day is artificially shortened and the symptoms of jet lag are generally worse when flying from west to east BECAUSE the day is artificially shortened. PERIOD. It takes almost one day for every time zone crossed to recover from this lag. Then, if you add in sleep loss to circadian disruption, the effects of each of them is compounded. PERIOD. Perhaps YOU are the one who needs to do more research on the subject since you have no actual experience in this matter, instead of telling others that they are full of crap and that they don't know what they are speaking about when they do. If you cannot grasp this information and refuse to do any research and refuse to believe the truth than that is on you. But you are making yourself look rather foolish in the process.
"Experts" were involved in the new rules as far as the research and recommendations. We all know and understand that. However, the experts did not write the new rules, the government did. And with these new rules, while there are improvements they are not the end all be all that you claim they are. There are now other questions and issues arising and some issues have not been addressed at all. It also remains to be seen how the carriers enact these rules. There are "holes" and questions everywhere.
DE737UPS stated it best:
"It's sad that people have to throw insults here. One reason why the more seasoned folks you all want to hear from don't get involved with places like this."
That goes on far too much on here as far as I am concerned, and it's a loss for everyone.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Apparently you haven't read the rule and the discussion included with it. All of the issues that you discuss with circadian rhythm and time zone effects are accounted for, based on the science.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
ATN,
If you want, come jumpseat on my last trip of the month. It's PVG-NRT (1+30 block), turn in NRT to fly NRT-LAX. It's a nice 4 man crew, but ride along and tell me how you feel landing in LA. I'll take one 16 hour leg over that any day of the week. Twice on Tuesdays.
I understand the science, and I'm sure it's good science. That doesn't mean it fixes what's really wrong. Kind of like confusing teaching stall recognition versus teaching stalls.
If you want, come jumpseat on my last trip of the month. It's PVG-NRT (1+30 block), turn in NRT to fly NRT-LAX. It's a nice 4 man crew, but ride along and tell me how you feel landing in LA. I'll take one 16 hour leg over that any day of the week. Twice on Tuesdays.
I understand the science, and I'm sure it's good science. That doesn't mean it fixes what's really wrong. Kind of like confusing teaching stall recognition versus teaching stalls.
A Life Aloft
Well-Known Member
I have read the rules and more than once. I can also apply critical thinking and decades of my experience while reading them. In regards to your statement in this thread of "The Colgan crash is cited by many people as a reason for the new rules, but if you read the FAA's new rule, they make it quite clear that the Colgan crash was not caused by fatigue, and is not the justification for the new rules."
Please read pages 186 and 187 by Robert Sumwalt as to why fatigue was not cited in the NTSB report. http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2010/AAR1001.pdf
The devil is always in the details, something that you cannot seem to or refuse to understand .
Please read pages 186 and 187 by Robert Sumwalt as to why fatigue was not cited in the NTSB report. http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2010/AAR1001.pdf
The devil is always in the details, something that you cannot seem to or refuse to understand .
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
The implementation time frame of 24 months, as you know, is almost an eternity in regulation land. The revisions, exemptions, deviations, variations that can be made between now and then are the biggest bugaboos.
The International rules, I think, could be not very good from 2 Pilot Aircraft rules now. They are a big improvement from a 3-required crewmember airplane. Right now, planes with an FE can have the pilots in the seats for 12 hours. That is absolutely silly.
Also, the rest credits are interesting. I don't see how any augmented operation can get by with NO rest facilities, specifically a separate bunk. The idea of the augment is to allow the pilots to be rested for takeoff and landing, and the augmenting crewmemeber(s) to provide time after takeoff to allow the operating pilots to be rested for descent and landing. I've done both positions and the relief pilot really isn't a high-workload position. So, trying to rest, even in business or first, with FA's walking, pax walking, behind a curtain really can't be that good of rest. I've been in seats across the aisle from them as a paying pax. Just from some of the noises and the people bumping into your chairs, you can't get solid sleep.
As to conditions like DE posted, that's just as bad. I jumpseated on one of the major express carriers on a 3 man leg. They had a foam pad tossed onto the floor for rest. Then they hit turbulence. We have to belt down bags, but not pilots. Amazing.
And again, you have the scenario where the day meets the XX hour rule. However, if it's a 2 or more sector day, and one of the sectors does not allow for adequate rest, kind of changes things.
Ziggyfuzz
Well-Known Member
Indeed...
Todd, you're weird. Have a cocktail and enjoy the evening a little. You, perhaps, wouldn't be so upset when someone challenges your world-view.
Come on out to Las Vegas. I'll get you a cocktail and there are plenty of eager co-eds running around that'd be happy to meet ya!
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Todd, you're weird. Have a cocktail and enjoy the evening a little. You, perhaps, wouldn't be so upset when someone challenges your world-view.
Come on out to Las Vegas. I'll get you a cocktail and there are plenty of eager co-eds running around that'd be happy to meet ya!
Why don't you order a round for me. I'll be on company equipment tonight, and miss it all. I'll pay up for the group round in Oct.
The lady is almost done with the make-up, I'm in a weird color scheme that only a black guy could get away with and then it's on like Donkey Kong once we hit the door.
Certainly!
Actually, this is my first NYE off in a long time, I usually forget to bid and if I'm at home, I normally don't do much as it's "Amateur Hour" in PHX on the roads.
Certainly!
Actually, this is my first NYE off in a long time, I usually forget to bid and if I'm at home, I normally don't do much as it's "Amateur Hour" in PHX on the roads.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
edited because I know that's what you meant to say....(High five, brah)The lady is almost done with the make-up even though she doesn't need any to be beautiful, I'm in a weird color scheme that only a black guy could get away with and then it's on like Donkey Kong once we hit the door.
Certainly!
Actually, this is my first NYE off in a long time, I usually forget to bid and if I'm at home, I normally don't do much as it's "Amateur Hour" in PHX on the roads.
You dressed up like Cedric or Bernie Mac?
Pics or GTFO
He's dressed up like Justin Bieber
Nice! Actually, it's just a "light purple-ish" according to K.
Really more of a Blair Underwood than a Cedric the Entertainer!
Ha! But I know what you're talking about!
Yeah, I found this Brophy Prep uniform on eBay....
(Hey man, wrestle with the bull, GET THE HORNS!
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