US Airways Pilots Express Concern Following Publishing of FAA's New Rest Rules
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SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
The lawyers did exactly as they were paid to do. They got us a science-based rule. You just don't like science too much, apparently. You want to make your arguments based solely on your own opinion without any science to back it up. Your entire argument so far has basically consisted of "I've flown international and you haven't, so I know better than you, the scientists, the doctors, all of the ALPA volunteers, and the staff! I'm an international pilot! Nanny, nanny, boo, boo!"
Really, it's all very similar to a redneck arguing that global warming doesn't exist just because it snowed in his southern town last week. All anecdotal, no hard evidence.
Really, it's all very similar to a redneck arguing that global warming doesn't exist just because it snowed in his southern town last week. All anecdotal, no hard evidence.
For the love of David Hasselhoff, ATN_Pilot you truly insist on telling me that the new FTDT doesn't deleteriously affect the safety of my job, an area of operations in which you have no experience.
Science or no science, departing JFK at 1730 EST and landing at 0740 CET in FRA, un-augmented, with no rest opportunity is simply ridiculous. And this flight is only 8:10 wheels up to wheels down. You actually have another 50 minutes you can fly under the new rules.
Come do my job for a trip and then waves your arms screaming "Wannamingo!" about your faith in the science behind un-augmented transoceanic operations.
Until you've done that, I heavily suggest against heavily opining against those that have reservations about extending the work day.
I'm sorry but you really have no concept of what you're defending.
Science or no science, departing JFK at 1730 EST and landing at 0740 CET in FRA, un-augmented, with no rest opportunity is simply ridiculous. And this flight is only 8:10 wheels up to wheels down. You actually have another 50 minutes you can fly under the new rules.
Come do my job for a trip and then waves your arms screaming "Wannamingo!" about your faith in the science behind un-augmented transoceanic operations.
Until you've done that, I heavily suggest against heavily opining against those that have reservations about extending the work day.
I'm sorry but you really have no concept of what you're defending.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
"No seriously, it's 35 degrees in Atlanta. Forget the 'scientists,' there is no global warming. It's all a scam. Have I mentioned how awesome Glenn Beck is?"
To add onto my previous post, it's not as simple as taking off from JFK and flying to SEA. That's not an equivalent time but there are physical and psychological challenges when you're crossing time zones east, in the middle of the night.
Sure, in a controlled environment like a flight simulator you can make it work, but when you're dealing with the real world and not "Sim World" where you're struggling to understand heavily accented English, dealing with different rules, the sun's smack dab in your face and your eyeballs say 0800 but your body says 0300 and you're not sure if you were given direct Compton or Koksy, or was that a radar heading for Maastrict or were we supposed to join upper-lima 567, having a fresh pilot in that seat is handy as hell. Oh crap, what did the 10-1P page say about expecting issuance of RTA times. Was there a slow-down point? Oh yeah, we're outside of RVSM airspace in Eastern Europe, what was eight-thousand, one-hundred meters standard on the conversion chart?
When the real work starts, your body is already ready to shut down unless you're rested.
So you're pounding coffee all night in order to chemically keep yourself alert. Guess what, that caffeine in your system will absolutely wreck your sleep opportunity the next day so chances are, you won't be able to properly rest for hours after arrival. Now you're going to wake up late, try to find some dinner and now you find yourself awake, unable to sleep to catch proper rest for your flight back the next day.
No worries, if you say "Hey! I'll fly relief, I'll take first break"... There isn't a first break. It's just you and the other guy in the cockpit, bone tired.
Sadly, if we flew to the FAA's new rules, our non-union flight attendants have a better crew rest policy than our unionized pilots.
Have you, personally, experienced any of the above? If not, what qualifies you to lecture me about how the new work rules would affect me in my side of the operation?
Sure, in a controlled environment like a flight simulator you can make it work, but when you're dealing with the real world and not "Sim World" where you're struggling to understand heavily accented English, dealing with different rules, the sun's smack dab in your face and your eyeballs say 0800 but your body says 0300 and you're not sure if you were given direct Compton or Koksy, or was that a radar heading for Maastrict or were we supposed to join upper-lima 567, having a fresh pilot in that seat is handy as hell. Oh crap, what did the 10-1P page say about expecting issuance of RTA times. Was there a slow-down point? Oh yeah, we're outside of RVSM airspace in Eastern Europe, what was eight-thousand, one-hundred meters standard on the conversion chart?
When the real work starts, your body is already ready to shut down unless you're rested.
So you're pounding coffee all night in order to chemically keep yourself alert. Guess what, that caffeine in your system will absolutely wreck your sleep opportunity the next day so chances are, you won't be able to properly rest for hours after arrival. Now you're going to wake up late, try to find some dinner and now you find yourself awake, unable to sleep to catch proper rest for your flight back the next day.
No worries, if you say "Hey! I'll fly relief, I'll take first break"... There isn't a first break. It's just you and the other guy in the cockpit, bone tired.
Sadly, if we flew to the FAA's new rules, our non-union flight attendants have a better crew rest policy than our unionized pilots.
Have you, personally, experienced any of the above? If not, what qualifies you to lecture me about how the new work rules would affect me in my side of the operation?
Wholly unrelated.
What experience do you have with trans-oceanic international operations?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I haven't lectured you on anything related to your side of the operation. I've only referred you to people who have that sort of experience, who also happened to be involved in this effort, and told you to read the science-based FAA ruling and ARC recommendations, which are heavily footnoted with all of the science available for you to read for yourself. But you aren't interested in science. No skin off my nose.
It's ok to have solely book knowledge on a subject.
Simply put, if cabbage makes me gassy, then a scientist by the "National Cabbage Growers Association" says, "No, impossible! Science says that it's quite the contrary! Buy and eat all the cabbage you'd like!" how much of an idiot would I be to discount years of experience and load up on cabbage before date night?
Serious question man!
Trust me, I'm as much of an ALPA-bat wielding, battlestar-wearing, "Woo hoo! Let's blow up the big inflatable rat at HQ" as anyone else, but sadly, ALPA is dead wrong by supporting this as written.
Come fly transoceanic for a bit. You'll understand very quickly what I'm talking about. Until then, your opinion and support are noted. But your opinion is unexperienced. You have the right to it, but "some dude at Air Tran says it's OK to fly JFK to damned near Istanbul without a rest opportunity because science says so, so STOP YAWNING" isn't a shield I'd take into battle.
This is largely the equivalent, at this point, of a forumite at Airliners.net engaging me in heated debate about how FS 2000's MD-88 flies just like the real thing.
Simply put, if cabbage makes me gassy, then a scientist by the "National Cabbage Growers Association" says, "No, impossible! Science says that it's quite the contrary! Buy and eat all the cabbage you'd like!" how much of an idiot would I be to discount years of experience and load up on cabbage before date night?
Serious question man!
Trust me, I'm as much of an ALPA-bat wielding, battlestar-wearing, "Woo hoo! Let's blow up the big inflatable rat at HQ" as anyone else, but sadly, ALPA is dead wrong by supporting this as written.
Come fly transoceanic for a bit. You'll understand very quickly what I'm talking about. Until then, your opinion and support are noted. But your opinion is unexperienced. You have the right to it, but "some dude at Air Tran says it's OK to fly JFK to damned near Istanbul without a rest opportunity because science says so, so STOP YAWNING" isn't a shield I'd take into battle.
This is largely the equivalent, at this point, of a forumite at Airliners.net engaging me in heated debate about how FS 2000's MD-88 flies just like the real thing.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
It's ok to have solely book knowledge on a subject.
Simply put, if cabbage makes me gassy, then a scientist by the "National Cabbage Growers Association" says, "No, impossible! Science says that it's quite the contrary! Buy and eat all the cabbage you'd like!" how much of an idiot would I be to discount years of experience and load up on cabbage before date night?
Serious question man!
Obviously, your analogy makes little sense. I'm not just referring you to a scientist who works for the ATA, or the FAA, or even ALPA for that matter. The ruling is heavily footnoted. The reports cited are not from biased sources, such as the "National Cabbage Growers Association" scientist that you reference. These are independent minds, with many of their findings peer-reviewed.
So, like I said, you're no different than a right-winger arguing with the peer-reviewed science of global warming. "I'm totally serial, guys, it's hot in Texas in January! There can't be any global warming! Silly scientists with their book learnin' and such. Somebody pass me my dip cup."
It's alright, really. Your opinion is absolutely noted.
I'm just not ready to throw away years of experience because a guy from National is trying to get me to put faith in science.
I've got a new catch-phrase I'm going to use on Cav when he gets up to JFK. If I catch him yawning over the tracks, I'm going to say, "(Name)! Science, and ATN_Pilot say you should NOT be yawning!"
Maybe we can have a well-rested flight attendant do double-duty as an IRO!
I'm just not ready to throw away years of experience because a guy from National is trying to get me to put faith in science.
I've got a new catch-phrase I'm going to use on Cav when he gets up to JFK. If I catch him yawning over the tracks, I'm going to say, "(Name)! Science, and ATN_Pilot say you should NOT be yawning!
"Maybe we can have a well-rested flight attendant do double-duty as an IRO!
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Doug Taylor: I don't know how to put this, but I'm kind of a big deal.
Veronica Corningstone: Really.
Doug Taylor: I'm an international pilot.
Veronica Corningstone: Well, I'm very happy for you.
Doug Taylor: I'm very important. I have many leather-bound Jepp binders and my cockpit smells of rich mahogany.
Veronica Corningstone: Really.
Doug Taylor: I'm an international pilot.
Veronica Corningstone: Well, I'm very happy for you.
Doug Taylor: I'm very important. I have many leather-bound Jepp binders and my cockpit smells of rich mahogany.
ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
ATN_Pilot said:
Hahaha, well done!
Oh lord, now you're butt-hurt because I said it would be best if you had experience in this before opining on it.
I know absolutely nothing about 717's besides them being variants of the DC-9. I'm not the kind of guy who is going to break out the 717 AFM and attempt to debate you about how to operate one. It doesn't mean that I'm beneath or conversely above you, it just means that I'd respect your experience and have no problem with putting down the microphone and listening to your views about operating it.
Yeah, I've flown the MD-88 and MD-90, but it doesn't mean I know jack about the 717.
So you chose to toss out my real-world perspective on the new rules and discount first-hand experience with how you think it should work. Which is cool on the internet, but know when you're out of your element.
It doesn't mean you're bad. Or that I think I'm better. Sometimes you need to learn to listen to experience, rather than immediately discounting it because it's not politically in line with any political aspirations you have or any union circles you wish to remain in good company with. And if I'm completely out-to-lunch in this paragraph, I'm man enough to accept if I'm out of line by thinking this. Are you?
Have you listened? Nope.
Have you opined? Greatly.
Well, I'm going to go argue with MikeD about flying the F-117A and go debate LostPlanetAirman about flying the Airbus. But not before I match wits with TheFlyingTurkey about the pressures of fatherhood. BRB!
I know absolutely nothing about 717's besides them being variants of the DC-9. I'm not the kind of guy who is going to break out the 717 AFM and attempt to debate you about how to operate one. It doesn't mean that I'm beneath or conversely above you, it just means that I'd respect your experience and have no problem with putting down the microphone and listening to your views about operating it.
Yeah, I've flown the MD-88 and MD-90, but it doesn't mean I know jack about the 717.
So you chose to toss out my real-world perspective on the new rules and discount first-hand experience with how you think it should work. Which is cool on the internet, but know when you're out of your element.
It doesn't mean you're bad. Or that I think I'm better. Sometimes you need to learn to listen to experience, rather than immediately discounting it because it's not politically in line with any political aspirations you have or any union circles you wish to remain in good company with. And if I'm completely out-to-lunch in this paragraph, I'm man enough to accept if I'm out of line by thinking this. Are you?
Have you listened? Nope.
Have you opined? Greatly.
Well, I'm going to go argue with MikeD about flying the F-117A and go debate LostPlanetAirman about flying the Airbus. But not before I match wits with TheFlyingTurkey about the pressures of fatherhood. BRB!
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
I don't know. I don't blame Doug for being upset that the sitting in first class on duty and eating those great meals he is always posting the pics of is gonna go away. I guess good science didn't take that perk (a great perk at that) into account. My union is fighting to be included in the rules. I think for us, it's a good thing. NTSB and NASA seem to think this is the way to go. A few great perks may be lost but at some point you have to look at how it improves the job we do from an overall safety standpoint. I can appreciate the feelings of those who have to go 9 hours eastbound across the Atlantic. I also see many improvements in other areas such as rest time in the hotel and less duty time for multiple legs or all nighters.
So Doug will miss sitting in first chomping down the chow. I feel for ya. But I'm not sure, in the overall scheme of things, that's a good enough reason to dismiss the greater good these new rules will bring to the overall masses. Just my take on it. I'll leave you with a pic of the UPS cockpit crewed under the same rules as Delta.
So Doug will miss sitting in first chomping down the chow. I feel for ya. But I'm not sure, in the overall scheme of things, that's a good enough reason to dismiss the greater good these new rules will bring to the overall masses. Just my take on it. I'll leave you with a pic of the UPS cockpit crewed under the same rules as Delta.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
"Butt-hurt?" I don't even know what that means, but no, I'm not hurt in any fashion. I just think you're behaving like a self-important douchebag, so I figured I'd try to point it out in a comical manner instead of coming right out and saying it. Mission not accomplished, I guess.
You continue to ignore the fact that I haven't personally told you anything about what it's like to fly international. Because, as you've pointed out (again, and again, and again, and.....) I don't fly international. All I've done is point you to the people who have flown international who helped to bring us these rules, and to the peer-reviewed studies.
staplegun
Well-Known Member
Remember, though, that these are hard times now. IOW you are done at 9 hours regardless of what you are "scheduled" for. The majors are already talking about how they will have to pad these operations; there is no way you're going to be scheduled for much more than 8 hours on a 2 man operation as you won't be able to takeoff with any significant delay.
Doug, you've been flying out of JFK long enough to know that the major bitch with the current rule is that you can go over 8 as long as it's scheduled less than 8. So your 7:50 JFK to ___ is good to go with a 1 or 2 hour ground Wx delay and you end up blocking well over 8. With the new rules that same delay would have the crew returning to the gate timed out as they wouldn't be legal to finish.
The devil is always in the details...
Kevin
Cav
Former Maddog Whisperer
I've got a new catch-phrase I'm going to use on Cav when he gets up to JFK. If I catch him yawning over the tracks, I'm going to say, "(Name)! Science, and ATN_Pilot say you should NOT be yawning!
Doug you won't be able to see me yawn unless we're standing in the crew room. Only the Captain has ALPA endorsed yawn viewing privileges.
RRPower
Well-Known Member
How is Doug receiving any kind of crap for this? I don't care what science and doctors and guys that have 5 hours in the plane have to say about it. It's politics and Doug is right. I can't believe anyone on here would have the balls to say we need to take the "experts" at face value and totally disregard what we have thousands upon thousands of hours doing day in and day out.
Now I am not in the know about who ATN pilot is or what his job title is but from someone that doesn't know any better, he sounds like all of the big wigs at our company who like to preach about stuff they have no clue on because they never do it...but they sure have read all the books on it.
Now I am not in the know about who ATN pilot is or what his job title is but from someone that doesn't know any better, he sounds like all of the big wigs at our company who like to preach about stuff they have no clue on because they never do it...but they sure have read all the books on it.