United has some splainin to do…

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Like running into a drunk in a lonely bar.

“It’s a beautiful day!”

“It’s not beautiful, on a day just like today a girl broke my heart. Don’t date. Don’t get married. I don’t like people. I’m hungry, why doesn’t this bar have food? I hate the beer selection”

First is just a remark.

The second is a conversation.

I like conversations

 

[JDean3204]

Just calling it like it is.

And as a FO I was lower time. But by the time I logged my first hour of TPIC as a 121 CA, I had 9,922 hours total, 11 yrs as FO total. Today,l you could be a 1,500 hr pilot to a regional, 1000 hrs there, join a legacy and take a DEC position and be a 737/320 Captain with sub 3,000 hrs.




*civilian example only, military entire different. 1,500 mil guy is very experienced based on how their flight time is earned and logged.

Some of the captains that have scared me the most were 10k plus pilots.. One of the best CA’s I’ve ever flown with was less in TT than I was, not all 2k-3k TT pilots are useless. It all depends on the prior flying experience. Experience in quality, not quantity and more importantly how that prior experience was handled, whether a good learning experience in a mistake made or a confidence booster in a good decision made.

 

[Inverted]

Worst pilot I had ever flown with had 23,000 hours...

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Some of the captains that have scared me the most were 10k plus pilots.. One of the best CA’s I’ve ever flown with was less in TT than I was, not all 2k-3k TT pilots are useless. It all depends on the prior flying experience. Experience in quality, not quantity and more importantly how that prior experience was handled, whether a good learning experience in a mistake made or a confidence booster in a good decision made.

Oh for sure. After some point, hours are almost meaningless. But starting out, hours matter.

And a guy who went CFI to regional to major CA of an 737/320and still sub 3000 hrs? There’s only so much he could have seen in those 3,000 hrs.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Worst pilot I had ever flown with had 23,000 hours...

Sad thing is, I could probably name him in 3 guesses

 

[JDean3204]

Oh for sure. After some point, hours are almost meaningless. But starting out, hours matter.

And a guy who went CFI to regional to major CA of an 737/320and still sub 3000 hrs? There’s only so much he could have seen in those 3,000 hrs.

I’d say atleast a year at a major in the right seat, one cycle of all the seasons actually flying in all the seasons would be sufficient. But some are upgrading prior to that, again all depends on the situations they felt with at their prior 121 job, and how those situations were handled.

Regional CA is essentially a checkairman job without the pay at this point, so when you upgrade at a regional, you better get the big picture hat on while keeping that right eyeball locked in on the person next to you if you don’t want to fill paperwork out. If you make it through a cycle doing that, I’d say left seat at a major won’t be too bad of an adjustment.

Now I’m only the right seat, but as far as difficulty, this major airline job has been the easiest job in my career by far. The resources we have to do our job are more than enough, the duty days aren’t too crazy and the experience level seems to be decent all around as a pilot group. If available, I’d take an upgrade tomorrow here.

 

[Kingairer]

Very few made it to Spirit and Virgin (the only big names in hiring back then). The main hiring spree started 2013/4, and most my friends who stayed behind ended up being 8 yr FOs. However, they did get to Delta through a reduced interview program in 2014-2017. One guy flowed about 1.5 yrs ago to Delta. One classmate from jetU, joined 9E one week before I did, and then left for PSA in 2014, became a checkairman, and then recently flowed to AA and is on the 737.


It did work out for everybody I knew. But the problem was, how long they were stagnated as RJ FO on very low pay back in those days, and losing their 20s and 30s to the regional level and ending up at majors later in life, which reduces earning and retirement 401K potential.

I do understand what you are saying, but we are really discussing something that doesnt exist anymore in todays hiring environment, at least not to that extent. I dont think anyone has to bake a cake anymore or pet puppies at the animal shelter on weekends.
At the very least, I wish majors would start setting a minimum of 121 PIC time for civilian applicants. I've run into many who didnt want to upgrade at their regionals "and risk a failure" or something like that, and with flow it made no difference if they did or not.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I’d say atleast a year at a major in the right seat, one cycle of all the seasons actually flying in all the seasons would be sufficient. But some are upgrading prior to that, again all depends on the situations they felt with at their prior 121 job, and how those situations were handled.

Regional CA is essentially a checkairman job without the pay at this point, so when you upgrade at a regional, you better get the big picture hat on while keeping that right eyeball locked in on the person next to you if you don’t want to fill paperwork out. If you make it through a cycle doing that, I’d say left seat at a major won’t be too bad of an adjustment.

Now I’m only the right seat, but as far as difficulty, this major airline job has been the easiest job in my career by far. The resources we have to do our job are more than enough, the duty days aren’t too crazy and the experience level seems to be decent all around as a pilot group. If available, I’d take an upgrade tomorrow here.

I respectfully disagree that 1 yr at the major is enough. So far this shop requires 1,000 hrs as a FO at company before being eligible to upgrade. Personally, I think that rule should stay. Moot point now, there aren’t any upgrades anytime soon. Even when we start upgrades, there’s plenty of pilots hired 2019-2022 who will be lining up.

 

[JDean3204]

I respectfully disagree that 1 yr at the major is enough. So far this shop requires 1,000 hrs as a FO at company before being eligible to upgrade. Personally, I think that rule should stay. Moot point now, there aren’t any upgrades anytime soon. Even when we start upgrades, there’s plenty of pilots hired 2019-2022 who will be lining up.

I too feel that rule is good. 1,000 at the company prior to upgrade will allow one to see a decent amount before being the PIC. I’m just saying, if it gets below that, not all that choose to upgrade prior are going to be incidents waiting to happen. I’d argue that incidents waiting to happen will be there regardless of TT when sliding over. It’s also a hard point to prove with data, so I’ll shut up now lol

 

[Ian_J]

I respectfully disagree that 1 yr at the major is enough. So far this shop requires 1,000 hrs as a FO at company before being eligible to upgrade. Personally, I think that rule should stay. Moot point now, there aren’t any upgrades anytime soon. Even when we start upgrades, there’s plenty of pilots hired 2019-2022 who will be lining up.

Why?

We’ve got LCAs and CAs from AMCIs, LCCs and regionals as new hires. What’s the difference if they spend a year or as an FO or not? Regionals upgrade FOs the second they can. What makes them different than majors?

I mean seriously, at my own company I keep hearing that “this is a legacy” or this is the “majors” as reasons not to upgrade newer to us pilots. But we’d put our friends and family on “American Eagle, United Express, or Delta Connection” no problem? At the narrowbody domestic level it’s the exact same job.

 

[Avalon781ML]

I think we're all going to get a taste of that.

I do know that the wheels are still on the "Big 3 Bus", but they're wobbly and almost about to fly off the axle.

I'm just sayin'...

You too? Glad to know we aren’t the only ones…. “Why did you set THAT for the missed approach alt?” ——— “uhhhhh…. Because the airport briefing page said to expect that altitude in the event of a missed from a visual approach?”

Airport in question…. The mothership.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Why?

We’ve got LCAs and CAs from AMCIs, LCCs and regionals as new hires. What’s the difference if they spend a year or as an FO or not? Regionals upgrade FOs the second they can. What makes them different than majors?

I mean seriously, at my own company I keep hearing that “this is a legacy” or this is the “majors” as reasons not to upgrade newer to us pilots. But we’d put our friends and family on “American Eagle, United Express, or Delta Connection” no problem? At the narrowbody domestic level it’s the exact same job.

Those you mentioned are experienced crews.

And I share the same concerns in regards to regionals. The accident record domestically for regionals seems to be worse than compared to the majors.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You too? Glad to know we aren’t the only ones…. “Why did you set THAT for the missed approach alt?” ——— “uhhhhh…. Because the airport briefing page said to expect that altitude in the event of a missed from a visual approach?”

Airport in question…. The mothership.

Seriously, if you ever feel like you’re having a bad day, just read the ASAP reports at your own (whatever) airline. You suddenly won’t feel as bad. Some of these reports are kinda scary. They aren’t same caliber as 2017-2020. Post pandemic, it seems worse. I’d imagine at all the airlines, no one is really immune.

 

[Ian_J]

Those you mentioned are experienced crews.

And I share the same concerns in regards to regionals. The accident record domestically for regionals seems to be worse than compared to the majors.

Right. So why wait 1000 hours or a year at your airline?

 

[derg]

Right. So why wait 1000 hours or a year at your airline?

Exactly.

 

[Kingairer]

Right. So why wait 1000 hours or a year at your airline?

1000 hours is such a low bar though. 1.5/2 years seems like a very short time lenght to learn the operations and OM of the new company. I suspect these “problems” won’t be problems much longer.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

1000 hours is such a low bar though. 1.5/2 years seems like a very short time lenght to learn the operations and OM of the new company. I suspect these “problems” won’t be problems much longer.

True, but people coming here were already at other airlines. Moot point though because the most junior CA is Jan 2019. There aren’t any fast upgrades at this shop.

 

[Kingairer]

True, but people coming here were already at other airlines. Moot point though because the most junior CA is Jan 2019. There aren’t any fast upgrades at this shop.

I think we’re agreeing mostly. I think from a
Company’s standpoint and for operational efficiency you’d want someone to be an FO for some length of time and not a captain right out of Indoc. It’s not that someone couldn’t fly the airplane safely, it’s operationally I’d have concerns over. Never been out of our hubs or ramps, our procedures, our culture, our OM oddities etc.. I think if you’re doing it well, it’s a lot to ask a new hire with no one showing them the ropes. I wish the majors had done more to incentivize upgrading to narrow body captain vs hanging out in the right seat of widebody leaving us with a “brain drain”.

 

[DE727UPS]

Make no mistake about it, Boeing put out another hit…Scott Kirby was running his mouth, and now the FAA is looking into UAL.

Would be nice to see the FAA start doing their job again raising safety in aviation. Like get ride of the cargo cutout.

 

[melax]

Bird or Drone ?

Incident: United B39M at San Francisco on Mar 23rd 2024, bird strike

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