IPad (10)
Well-Known Member
On a 1000nm trip you will be stopping in the Mustang. You will be flying over that fuel stop in the Pilatus.
Alex.
Turbine Vs Jet...
- Thread starter BTAcola
- Start date
On a 1000nm trip you will be stopping in the Mustang. You will be flying over that fuel stop in the Pilatus.
Alex.
BTAcola
New Member
actually for the range that we are looking for, for max fuel and max passengers, the Jet is actually looking to be equal to the pilatus as far as payload.
WE are looking for max range, max speed, and max payload AFTER full fuel, as to avoid stops. In the mustang, according to our flight plan provider that we use on a regular basis, the mustang will have FAA/NBAA reserves on a 1000NM trip point to point.. and obviously the PC-12 will as well.. Anyone wanna help on the specs for loads for both aircraft? I got 500 pages of similar info that im tryin to decode here...
As stated, we are looking for one of those two birds, customer is already accustomed to around a 3hr flight for a jet... the pilatus would be 4hr 45min for the same 3hr flight, just tryin to justify the specs that is all. .. and yes.. gettin away with palatuypus is kinda funny. haha.
BTAcola
New Member
Also.... i found this.. a direct quote... assuming this is for the NG,.. or are all PC-12s pretty much guarenteed this?
"The Pilatus PC12 has an exceptional payload capacity and range, allowing it to easily carry two pilots, six adult passengers, their luggage, and enough fuel to fly over 1500 miles non-stop."
SoonerAv8r
Well-Known Member
On the PC12/47E or the "NG" you can look at the basic operating weight of the aircraft as equipped (including one 200lb pilot) a full bladder (2704lbs) and then about 1300lbs of passengers/cargo possibly 2+6.
This means that you will always be able to make that 1000nm trip on fuel despite the winds.
The Mustang is gonna hold 2580lbs of fuel and only 600lbs of pax/cargo, possibly 2+4. The Mustang will only be able to make the 1000nm trip with the wind.
PC12=goes farther, burns less fuel
Mustang=goes faster on more fuel
The moral is like someone said above: On the 1000nm mission the PC-12 will keep on flying after the Mustang has stopped for fuel, So both aircraft will arrive at about the same time the PC-12 just saved you money on fuel.
My company makes alot of trips from OK to FL often bumping the 1000nm point, so a Mustang is pretty useless to us. Now if your avg mission is 800nm there may be an advantage to the Mustang.
This means that you will always be able to make that 1000nm trip on fuel despite the winds.
The Mustang is gonna hold 2580lbs of fuel and only 600lbs of pax/cargo, possibly 2+4. The Mustang will only be able to make the 1000nm trip with the wind.
PC12=goes farther, burns less fuel
Mustang=goes faster on more fuel
The moral is like someone said above: On the 1000nm mission the PC-12 will keep on flying after the Mustang has stopped for fuel, So both aircraft will arrive at about the same time the PC-12 just saved you money on fuel.
My company makes alot of trips from OK to FL often bumping the 1000nm point, so a Mustang is pretty useless to us. Now if your avg mission is 800nm there may be an advantage to the Mustang.
SoonerAv8r
Well-Known Member
Just an added thought to my last post....
It occurred to me after the post that comparing the PC-12 and Mustang are like comparing soup to nuts.
A more accurate comparision in regards to payload and range would be the PC-12 to...say a CJ2 in regards to range, but still a much lower payload.
It occurred to me after the post that comparing the PC-12 and Mustang are like comparing soup to nuts.
A more accurate comparision in regards to payload and range would be the PC-12 to...say a CJ2 in regards to range, but still a much lower payload.
BTAcola
New Member
OUTSTANDING!!!! That is the info that I needed. I think if they want the comfort of the jet, we could stop half way.... the PC-12 DOES have a "full" wall expendable toilet just incase.. vs the mustang does not... so on a 4hr+ flight... that would be a good thing for them. I guess I am just partial to push for the PIC MULTI Turbine. PIC Turbine is great, PIC MULTI TURBINE is even better.. Now from a CFI Point of View. The G-1000 mustang avionics is GREAT for me, becuase Ive instructed primairly in that for my whole CFI career. So the switch to the mustang is great. The avionics on the PC12 would be newer and more difficult for me to get used to as well as teach in. Either way, as stated in a previous post.. Either aircraft would be single pilot and i would "teach" him how to fly the plane. as a reminder, he is not interested in doing a TON of training, he just wants to be able to "fly" the plane, when the auto"awesome"pilot is not flying it. So from my point of view. The mustang is a VERY VERY user friendly aircraft... not much is required (for lack of better words cause im afraid i might insult someone) but for someone with basic instrument skills.. the G1000 gives you all the info you need. The PC-12 would need a lil more searching for the same info. So from an instructors point of view. The G1000 would be an easier transition.... thanks for all the great info.
ricecakecm
Well-Known Member
When I flew PC-12s, I flew TEB-OMA, which is right at 1000 miles, in 5.something. Landed with about 500 pounds, which is at least an hour, if I remember correctly.
We also regularly had a PC-12 that would do MCI-CYYC, non-stop. That was a 6 hour leg.
Great airplane. I only got to fly a couple of PC-12/47s, and not on a regular basis. Never got to fly an NG.
Flew it for about 800 hours over 2.5 years, never had a major problem. Most of our write-ups were light bulbs, tires, etc. Probably the biggest problem I had was an Essential Bus warning, which turned out to be a bad Battery Bus indication.
The only complaints are that there's no relief tube in the cockpit and the coffee pots are pretty small (we used regular in one, decaf in the other), so if you've got a bunch of coffee drinkers, plan on an extra thermos.
We flew one with the two extra seats for the back and the back 4 seats get pretty cramped and you usually have to pull one of the jump seats out to load bags.
We also regularly had a PC-12 that would do MCI-CYYC, non-stop. That was a 6 hour leg.
Great airplane. I only got to fly a couple of PC-12/47s, and not on a regular basis. Never got to fly an NG.
Flew it for about 800 hours over 2.5 years, never had a major problem. Most of our write-ups were light bulbs, tires, etc. Probably the biggest problem I had was an Essential Bus warning, which turned out to be a bad Battery Bus indication.
The only complaints are that there's no relief tube in the cockpit and the coffee pots are pretty small (we used regular in one, decaf in the other), so if you've got a bunch of coffee drinkers, plan on an extra thermos.
We flew one with the two extra seats for the back and the back 4 seats get pretty cramped and you usually have to pull one of the jump seats out to load bags.
BTAcola
New Member
HAHA, yea I already planned on bringing along a very large Gatorade bottle, one of those 64 ounce things just in case. hahaha. Im glad I was informed, but I thought with a full bladder and 200lb pilot upfront, i only had 600 more lbs to work with. Im glad im wrong on that.
I got a tour of a pc-12 yesterday, and i was very impressed with the large cargo door and just how massive the aircraft was itself. Pictures definatly do NOT do it justice. It was sitting next to a G1, and it definatly made the G1 look very similar in size comparison.
The one thing that is keeping the owner leaning towards the mustang, is that for a little over 2.7, he can get a new one... we are hard pressed to find a gently used PC-12, under half way to TBO (3500?), for less than 2.7M.
What about a Citation 551? Those are single pilot (that require a type) and you can pick 'em up now for around $1.5.
-mini
BTAcola
New Member
Also... Since I am in uncharted territory here.... Lets say for a contracted "retainer" pilot for the PC-12. What would be a industry starting average for this position? I am 110% for pilots to get paid for their skills and professionalism. However I am VERY VERY aware, that there would be a HUGE LINE behind me of pilots willing to do the job cheaper than I. I am a very proud supporter of pilots being paid a DECENT wage!!!! and a wage they deserve. The owner asked me to give him a range, and I would not only like it to be FAIR for him, but also , NOT DEMEANING for me as a professional.
Thanks.
BC
Just flying: $40,000 up to 7 days a month. Every day after that at $600/day.
Flying and Managing: $65,000 up to 7 days. Every day after that at $600/day.
Flying, Managing and Instructing (signing a logbook): $90,000 up to 7 days a month. Every day after that $800.
135 rest rules (min 10 hours rest in preceding 24 hours - max 8 hours flight per day since it's single pilot)
Per diem - $50/day any night spent away from home domestic. $150/day international. Rental car and hotel provided.
What about vacation? Medical? 401(k)? Who flies when you're on vacation?
Hammer that out and I'd say you have a very fair deal goin' on. Don't take less. If they can afford a multi-million dollar airplane, they can afford that for a competent crew.
-mini
Flying and Managing: $65,000 up to 7 days. Every day after that at $600/day.
Flying, Managing and Instructing (signing a logbook): $90,000 up to 7 days a month. Every day after that $800.
135 rest rules (min 10 hours rest in preceding 24 hours - max 8 hours flight per day since it's single pilot)
Per diem - $50/day any night spent away from home domestic. $150/day international. Rental car and hotel provided.
What about vacation? Medical? 401(k)? Who flies when you're on vacation?
Hammer that out and I'd say you have a very fair deal goin' on. Don't take less. If they can afford a multi-million dollar airplane, they can afford that for a competent crew.
-mini
BTAcola
New Member
WOW... if you can find someone willing to pay that for a Pilatus pilot in this economy... id be VERY VERY impressed. haha. Im working with some of those numbers from above.
Thanks.
If you're flying the plane and managing it and instructing it and getting less than $90,000 for 7 days / month flying ... you need to re-evaluate what your worth really is.
Seriously. Managing an airplane is a full time job. While you may only be flying the plane 7 days a month, you're going to spend 40+ hours / week with it cleaning, stocking, doing charts, scheduling mx, etc., etc. Not to mention the added liability of signing someone's logbook as an instructor. Remember the guy does not need a type or any specific training for part 91 in the PC-12. He'll need a high performance, complex and perhaps high altitude endorsement to act as PIC, but that's it. If you sign him off for that, you need to be compensated for your time, knowledge, skills and name going in his logbook.
It's not like you'd just show up and jump in and blast off. That would be "flying only" and be worth about $40,000/yr.
If he can really afford to own and operate this type of equipment, he can afford to pay an aircraft manager/pilot/instructor what they're worth. If not, he needs to stick to something like a Baron or Seneca.
-mini
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
Great thread thus far.
I have a few questions for the original poster.
I have more but need to know a few things first. I'd be weary of a customer asking about leaseback stuff. Makes me think he's cheap.
I've flown both the CJ3 and PC12. I'm a huge fan of the CJ series of aircraft. Easy plane to fly and it really can't get much simpler than this airplane. It seems to me the way you're talking about your potential boss, he really wants a jet. Don't get me wrong, the PC12 is a great airplane, it just doesn't have the speed of a CJ.
I have a few questions for the original poster.
- Yearly budget
- How many hours does he want to fly per year
- Airports frequented (will ASE be one of them or any other mountain airport)
- Typical passenger load (ie kids, wives, girlfriends, mistresses, buddies, ect)
- Net worth
I have more but need to know a few things first. I'd be weary of a customer asking about leaseback stuff. Makes me think he's cheap.
I've flown both the CJ3 and PC12. I'm a huge fan of the CJ series of aircraft. Easy plane to fly and it really can't get much simpler than this airplane. It seems to me the way you're talking about your potential boss, he really wants a jet. Don't get me wrong, the PC12 is a great airplane, it just doesn't have the speed of a CJ.
BTAcola
New Member
Yearly Budget- I dont know, lets just say 100,000 for giggles.
Hours- About 300hrs.
Airports- Lets say, Texas to Cabo, Florida, San Diego,etc etc
PAXs- Girlfriends, Execuitives, Family, Pets, Friends, Neighbors, etc etc
Net worth- Lets just say, its hard to drive around the large city I live in, say about (4-6million people) and not see this individuals name some place.
He asks about Lease Back, more so I could do more flying when Not flying with them, and more so to make a return of some sort on the investment. Its not a concern of making money, its more of a business venture to see what sort of return if any would be possible.. If there is a return, cool, if not, then oh well.
He does want a Jet, but "The PC-12 is just too dam sexy not to get". The load it can carry and the distance is BY FAR way more than the mustang can get. ANd the distances we could go with the PC-12 Versus the Mustang are much better. Sure the PC-12 is slow, but if you equate a fuel stop in for the Jet... it would probably work out to be about the same amount of time.
Right now it seems as if a third party is getting involved with my potential new boss, and saying that its not worth the investment right now becuase who know if he will still be interested in one-two years from now. So its more of a one minute the attitude is, "lets do it, whooohooo lets go get something talk about it etc etc".. the next is, not pick up phone calls, not interested, all down in the dumps about it and not sure if this is a good idea, it goes back and forth like this for a few days... a few great days.. a few days of not giving a hoot. So... thats kind of where we stand now.
Im keeping as humble as possible about this, and one has to, becuase... no job is guarenteed. Hell, I could get a G5 type one day and the next have the plane sold and im out of a job. So nothing is guarenteed, Its about quality of life, and Im trying my best to watch out for not only me, but to make sure that he is happy with his potential investement, and that I can be doing all that I can to make sure that happens.- That is also another part of the reason i do not wish to throw 90k down on the table for my pay., Very frustrating... just want the individual to pull the trigger and make a decision, but I still have a part time job for now, and atleast I am still flying where some of my friends are on Furlough, so I have to stay positive as long as I can.
Thanks everyone for the advice and chat, its helped SO MUCH!! KEEP IT COMING...
B
BTAcola
New Member
Also- side note, I was informed today, that he was curious that since he is used to ridding in a jet to/from everywhere, if he would be "anxious" and not be able to sit still for that long on the PC-12.
He said that even after a 3hr jet ride, by the last few minutes, he has a very hard time sitting still etc etc. From knowing this individual like I do, he always seems in a rush, but when I force him to mentally slow down (flying the 172 for his training), he gets very unsure of himself and is more so for lake of better words (afraid of the plane). However, this is expected as his hours are not that high and these feelings take time to overcome.
I think the third party (friend of some sort), really wants to make it happen for him, but has high doubts that my future employer will actually be happy with his investment, and does not want to see him get bored with it after so many months, or, waste his money. The more I think about it, this person is probably just not a Financial guru, it sounds more like a very close friend.
Either way... I just would like to do something other than instructing again and when I saw a "quicker" fix to it, I let the excitement get to me a bit. I was also informed that this purchase if made, would be sometime this year... not this month or next, but sometime this year.
So... that is pretty much all of it up to date..
He said that even after a 3hr jet ride, by the last few minutes, he has a very hard time sitting still etc etc. From knowing this individual like I do, he always seems in a rush, but when I force him to mentally slow down (flying the 172 for his training), he gets very unsure of himself and is more so for lake of better words (afraid of the plane). However, this is expected as his hours are not that high and these feelings take time to overcome.
I think the third party (friend of some sort), really wants to make it happen for him, but has high doubts that my future employer will actually be happy with his investment, and does not want to see him get bored with it after so many months, or, waste his money. The more I think about it, this person is probably just not a Financial guru, it sounds more like a very close friend.
Either way... I just would like to do something other than instructing again and when I saw a "quicker" fix to it, I let the excitement get to me a bit. I was also informed that this purchase if made, would be sometime this year... not this month or next, but sometime this year.
So... that is pretty much all of it up to date..
NEOHIO
Well-Known Member
Hope all works out well for you!
I operate a baron for 300 hours per year corporate and it costs a lot more than 100,000!
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
I was thinking the same thing billy...
PC12 at 300 hours a year will be way more than 100 large.
BTAcola
New Member
I jsut ball parked it... i know its atleast 200k. But I have not been able to obtain that information from him yet.
EX... 700/hr to operate the pc-12... times 300hrs a year.. thast 210,000.
Time to start doing some real homework I think.
Your $700 per hour probably won't cover all the costs involved (just guessing), but to find out for sure I'd start with something like an ARG/US Operating Cost report and take a close look at all the costs involved:
http://aviationresearch.com/Products/acftlist.asp
Here's a sample report:
http://www.aviationresearch.com/Files/AOC.pdf
Your $700 per hour probably won't cover all the costs involved (just guessing), but to find out for sure I'd start with something like an ARG/US Operating Cost report and take a close look at all the costs involved:
http://aviationresearch.com/Products/acftlist.asp
Here's a sample report:
http://www.aviationresearch.com/Files/AOC.pdf
