To ODP, or not to ODP, that is the question.

[Cessnaflyer]

Then if they aren't shutting down the airport for your departure, then you weren't operating as an IFR aircraft UNTIL they said "radar contact" so the "VFR climb" really is just that; a VFR departure and then picking up a clearance in the air.

That said, they do some strange things out here. Last night I called for taxi at Maui and the guy cleared us for take off with no taxi instructions or anything.

Yeah, I didn't like some of the ATC procedures out there.

Have you noticed that if you don't read back the full approach clearance with radials into Lihue the controller makes you read it back again. I'm used to saying, "cleared for the VOR 3 approach." And that was sufficient on the mainland.

 

[BobDDuck]

Yeah, I didn't like some of the ATC procedures out there.

Have you noticed that if you don't read back the full approach clearance with radials into Lihue the controller makes you read it back again. I'm used to saying, "cleared for the VOR 3 approach." And that was sufficient on the mainland.

I've only done approaches to 35 and 21 and have never had an issue with reading back anything other than just the approach type and runway.

 

[MNFlyboy]

@Cessnaflyer were you with Mokulele? If I was on an IFR clearance, but not on an IFR Approach or Departure procedure, they may not have to shutdown arrivals/deps, however read that as IFR app/dep flights. If someone is on an IFR plan in or out and it's uncontrolled, only other IFR flights are not allowed in or out, but VFR flights are not affected.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

@Cessnaflyer were you with Mokulele? If I was on an IFR clearance, but not on an IFR Approach or Departure procedure, they may not have to shutdown arrivals/deps, however read that as IFR app/dep flights. If someone is on an IFR plan in or out and it's uncontrolled, only other IFR flights are not allowed in or out, but VFR flights are not affected.

No, I was with Island Air. We would usually get stuck at Lanai when someone wouldn't close their flight plan. I think since Kapalua had the radio operator they were able to fit more flights in.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

I've only done approaches to 35 and 21 and have never had an issue with reading back anything other than just the approach type and runway.

Have you shot the gap yet

 

[BobDDuck]

Have you shot the gap yet

Per company policy we don't do that any more.

But yes.

 

[MNFlyboy]

@Cessnaflyer I remember now. I cancel as often and as early as possible for Island Air when I fly in there

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[deadstick]

We had a discussion about ODP's the other day. Here are the scenarios:

For a multiengine turboprop airplane (<12.5) operating 135 and on course is 090....

1) controlled airport, IMC, radar feed from TRACON in the tower, ODP is runway heading (008) to 2000 before turning. Tower clears you for takeoff, right turn to 070.
2) controlled airport, IMC, NO radar feed in the tower, ODP is runway heading (008) to 2000 before turning. Tower clears you for takeoff, right turn to 070.
3) controlled airport, IMC, NO radar feed in the tower, ODP is runway heading (008) to 2000 before turning right. Tower clears you for takeoff, right turn on course.

When would you make the turn? 400 ft....2000 ft....

 

[Dugie8]

Climb to the top of the odp then turn to assigned heading. Tower doesn't guarantee obstacle clearance with heading assignments.

Diverse departure areas will only muddy the waters further...

 

[STS-41B]

resurrecting this old thread.. let's use DRO (Durango, Colorado) as an example.
Typically a flight to DFW from there is filed DRO, V123 (not the right number but doesn't matter), some fix, PNH, etc...
let's say it's clear and a million day time.. DRO has no tower; you get your clearance and release from Denver center when you're number 1 at runway 3 or 21 .. let's say we're using 21. The ODP says you have to fly on a heading to a fix, which is completely the wrong direction.
Half the people I fly with say you have to do this. The other half make left traffic off of 21 and as we contact Denver center we're typically cleared to the fix down the road...

 

[ppragman]

resurrecting this old thread.. let's use DRO (Durango, Colorado) as an example.
Typically a flight to DFW from there is filed DRO, V123 (not the right number but doesn't matter), some fix, PNH, etc...
let's say it's clear and a million day time.. DRO has no tower; you get your clearance and release from Denver center when you're number 1 at runway 3 or 21 .. let's say we're using 21. The ODP says you have to fly on a heading to a fix, which is completely the wrong direction.
Half the people I fly with say you have to do this. The other half make left traffic off of 21 and as we contact Denver center we're typically cleared to the fix down the road...

What does 91.175 say?

 

[Inverted25]

resurrecting this old thread.. let's use DRO (Durango, Colorado) as an example.
Typically a flight to DFW from there is filed DRO, V123 (not the right number but doesn't matter), some fix, PNH, etc...
let's say it's clear and a million day time.. DRO has no tower; you get your clearance and release from Denver center when you're number 1 at runway 3 or 21 .. let's say we're using 21. The ODP says you have to fly on a heading to a fix, which is completely the wrong direction.
Half the people I fly with say you have to do this. The other half make left traffic off of 21 and as we contact Denver center we're typically cleared to the fix down the road...

Is there a climb in VMC procedure in lieu of the ODP?


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[STS-41B]

no idea.. But OpSpecs says "must comply with departure procedure .. if ATC does not specify any particular departure in t/o clearance"
Then it says "flight crew may accept an IFR clearance containing a takeoff and climb in VFR conditions out to a specified point in the clearance, if ..." and then says 1000' ceiling or greater, cloud clearance can be done, etc...

Since I've polled out check airmen and gotten roughly the same 50/50 split... you'd think there'd be better clearer-cut language.

 

[ppragman]

no idea.. But OpSpecs says "must comply with departure procedure .. if ATC does not specify any particular departure in t/o clearance"
Then it says "flight crew may accept an IFR clearance containing a takeoff and climb in VFR conditions out to a specified point in the clearance, if ..." and then says 1000' ceiling or greater, cloud clearance can be done, etc...

Since I've polled out check airmen and gotten roughly the same 50/50 split... you'd think there'd be better clearer-cut language.

Then how do you do your job?

Look up 91.175, then get back to us, it says exactly what you need to do.

 

[ppragman]

To be clear, not trying to be a dick, just this is a good exercise.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

To be clear, not trying to be a dick, just this is a good exercise.

Yet, there still may be some level of ambiguity. If ATC gives you one thing, but the regs stipulate a different thing, in some cases at least, you'll have to trust that local ATC understands.

Not too long ago, for the first time ever, I shot an approach to minimums into SDL. Local controllers -self admittedly - were very confused about missed procedures and where to hold. The phrasing for an alternative missed holding point was something to the effect of "Ah, yeah, just hold somewhere to the south of XYZ, at, ah, 7000. We don't really ever do misses here."

 

[z987k]

Yet, there still may be some level of ambiguity. If ATC gives you one thing, but the regs stipulate a different thing, in some cases at least, you'll have to trust that local ATC understands.

Not too long ago, for the first time ever, I shot an approach to minimums into SDL. Local controllers -self admittedly - were very confused about missed procedures and where to hold. The phrasing for an alternative missed holding point was something to the effect of "Ah, yeah, just hold somewhere to the south of XYZ, at, ah, 7000. We don't really ever do misses here."

ATC doesn't know what rules you fly by. If you're 91, 125, 135, 121. And even when they do know that they dont have a copy of your opspecs, exemptions, equipment limitations, FOM, Etc.
You have to put your big boy pants on and do your job correctly.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

ATC doesn't know what rules you fly by. If you're 91, 125, 135, 121. And even when they do know that they dont have a copy of your opspecs, exemptions, equipment limitations, FOM, Etc.

Right. That's part of the great from where the ambiguity might leak into the situation.

I mean, as is the case in many - most? - situations, a quick clarifying exchange on the radio usually does the trick. If no ground radio com, fly your regs while complying with Rule 1 and Rule 2 of Aviation: Don't hit nothin'. Don't do nothin' stupid.

 

[ppragman]

Yet, there still may be some level of ambiguity. If ATC gives you one thing, but the regs stipulate a different thing, in some cases at least, you'll have to trust that local ATC understands.

Well, what are the options a guy would have in this situation?

1. Depart VFR, do whatever the • you want.

2. Fly the ODP, go way the hell out away from where you want to go .

3. Ask ATC of you can climb in VMC (if this is possible). You'll get a clearance like, "maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance through 12,000, climb and maintain FLXXX.

4. You may have alternative procedures in your opspecs, consult those.

5. Just do what OP said, but recognize that you're likely breaking the law.

Take your pick.

 

[Inverted25]

Well, what are the options a guy would have in this situation?

1. Depart VFR, do whatever the • you want.

2. Fly the ODP, go way the hell out away from where you want to go .

3. Ask ATC of you can climb in VMC (if this is possible). You'll get a clearance like, "maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance through 12,000, climb and maintain FLXXX.

4. You may have alternative procedures in your opspecs, consult those.

5. Just do what OP said, but recognize that you're likely breaking the law.

Take your pick.

Depending on 91, 135 121 it’s not always that simple. 135 you can’t just blast off providing your own terrain clearance unless you have a charted visual procedure that meets all the terrain clearance requirements single engine. Hence why a lot of places using APG to provide the alternate procedure that meets the regs requirement.


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