To ODP, or not to ODP, that is the question.

[Cessnaflyer]

Ok, for my sake since I don't fly a Large Trans Cat Aircraft, and those regs don't apply to this situation, let's assume we're all out flying in a Caravan or a King Air 200 under 135. For what it's worth I recently read over our GOM and it states; during IMC or Marginal Visual Meteo Conditions (which it goes on to define), an ODP or SID MUST be flown, so there goes my visual ambiguity, except for conditions better than 3000 and 5. So in severe clear, the question still stands. Does being on an IFR clearance basically imply that since ATC has taken over the responsibility of your safety to a certain extent, that now I must adhere to their publications and directions in order to be compliant, whereas if I was VFR, the responsibility to not CFIT is completely yours!?

I'll have to see what ours said. We would always visual climb out of jhm when taking off on 2.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Let me clear up what I may have caused in terms of confusion.

Part 135, on an IFR plan and release you must fly the ODP. ref 91.175 (I may have misstated and said at all times fly the ODP)

So, from that reg. Under IFR, that meaning on the clearance regardless of weather, you must fly the ODP UNLESS ATC gives you something different. If you are VFR, meaning not on a clearance, section (i) still applies..

***
Maybe we can get a Center Controller to chime in here on what they are allowed/supposed to give us for issuing clearances from uncontrolled fields that have ODPs.

For some reasons, ODPs seem to cause a lot of confusion. Maybe it's the partial voluntary nature of them. But last yuear a pilot wrote into IFR magazine saying that ATC kept on turning her into mountain ridges when departing Asheville NC to the west. Her clearance made no sense without considering ODPs and perfect sense with them.

Basics are pretty simple:

1. In general, ODPs are optional for plain vanilla Part 91 (but mandatory for Part 121, 125, 129, or 135 operations). 91.175(f)
2. Perhaps its obvious but an exception to the voluntariness of an OPD for plain Part 91 is if ATC assigns the ODP as an instruction or part of a clearance. Then it falls into 91.123.
3. In general, if an ODP is not assigned by ATC, it is the pilot's prerogative to fly it anyway. AIM 5-2-8. In this situation, the pilot should advise ATC of the pilot's intentions; it's always a good idea to be on the same page as ATC.
4. The exception to the pilot's prerogative is if ATC assigns a SID (which includes obstacle clearance) or receives vectors immediately upon takeoff. AIM 5-2-8

It's also a good idea to review the the appropriate sections of the FAA's Instrument Procedures Handbook (IPH).

In terms of what ATC does, especially at non-radar airports (towered or not) varies. I've been to airports where I've been assigned an ODP s part of my takeoff clearance and others where I have not. Interestingly, the IPH says ATC will generally not assign an ODP unless also needed for aircraft separation. The ATC Handbook sort of echoes this, it directs controllers to include a textual ODP when "pilot compliance is necessary to insure separation."

Bottom line, obstacle clearance is our job (penalty is out lives, not FAA enforcement) and ATC may or may not take responsibility for us until reaching a proper altitude by issuing vectors or assigning a departure procedure..

 

[Dugie8]

I don't understand the reluctance to fly the either. It adds .3 to the flight, max. Hitting the rocks adds a lot more.

 

[z987k]

I don't understand the reluctance to fly the either. It adds .3 to the flight, max. Hitting the rocks adds a lot more.

Eh, if it's actually VFR out, there's a lot of times we blast off 1200 and pick up the clearance in the air. That way we don't have to talk to flight service, and sometimes the ODP can be quite long. Did one yesterday, and it's 61 miles.

 

[Dugie8]

Eh, if it's actually VFR out, there's a lot of times we blast off 1200 and pick up the clearance in the air. That way we don't have to talk to flight service, and sometimes the ODP can be quite long. Did one yesterday, and it's 61 miles.

You have OpSpec c077?

 

[z987k]

You have OpSpec c077?

Yes, but my BE20 is not a turbojet.

 

[Dugie8]

That OpSpec isn't turbojet specific. If you can copy and paste what it says.

I can't find the "blank" version in FSIMS.

Mine says I can't depart VFR unless I can't get my clearance on the ground. You are correct that the obstacle clearance requirements don't apply to the king air but having to fly the ODP while under IFR still does. Having to be under IFR is where C077 comes in.

Forgive me if I'm off on the OpSpec number. Too many numbers swirling around in limited cranium space.

 

[z987k]

That OpSpec isn't turbojet specific. If you can copy and paste what it says.

I can't find the "blank" version in FSIMS.

Mine says I can't depart VFR unless I can't get my clearance on the ground. You are correct that the obstacle clearance requirements don't apply to the king air but having to fly the ODP while under IFR still does. Having to be under IFR is where C077 comes in.

Forgive me if I'm off on the OpSpec number. Too many numbers swirling around in limited cranium space.

Here's the pertinent part I was referring to.

C077 . Terminal Visual Flight Rules, Limitations, and
Provisions
HQ Control: 11/16/2011
HQ Revision:
02b
a. Except as provided in this paragraph, 14 CFR Part 93 or SFAR 50-2, the certificate holder shall
operate all flights conducted under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 135 turbojet operations, within the
areas listed in paragraph B050 of these operations specifications in accordance with instrument flight
rules (IFR). The certificate holder is authorized to conduct terminal area operations according to the
following provisions and limitations.

Of note, there are actually a lot of places we go to that FSS is not reachable on the ground, nor is center, and there is no phone service either. We try with the Sat phone, but it's hit or miss. Through clearances FTW, which, yes means we're IFR and flying the ODP.

 

[Dugie8]

I gotcha. I completely missed the turbojet part. Getting old.

So that raises the question. Since C077 is the OpSpec that gives you relief from flying under IFR, does that mean since it is for turbojets that you cannot operate under VFR with the BE200?

Like you said, you operate out of locations that make getting your clearance impossible so what allows you to go VFR?

Maybe there is an OpSpec I'm missing or we don't have because we are all jets. It seems weird that c077 would be turbojet specific while the regs require you to fly the ODP, regardless of powerplant, while under IFR. I guess it wouldn't be the only inconsistency from the FAA.

 

[z987k]

I gotcha. I completely missed the turbojet part. Getting old.

So that raises the question. Since C077 is the OpSpec that gives you relief from flying under IFR, does that mean since it is for turbojets that you cannot operate under VFR with the BE200?

Like you said, you operate out of locations that make getting your clearance impossible so what allows you to go VFR?

Maybe there is an OpSpec I'm missing or we don't have because we are all jets. It seems weird that c077 would be turbojet specific while the regs require you to fly the ODP, regardless of powerplant, while under IFR. I guess it wouldn't be the only inconsistency from the FAA.

I'm going to have to dig(I don't have these memorized, and just happened to be going through ours looking for something else when you asked for C077) to find out where it says it's okay, but I know we can operate an entire flight in our tprops under VFR, given lots of conditions.
I'm trying to think of one which mandates IFR, after all there are VFR only certificates. VFR seems like the baseline, and you add from there.

 

[ppragman]

Here's the pertinent part I was referring to.



Of note, there are actually a lot of places we go to that FSS is not reachable on the ground, nor is center, and there is no phone service either. We try with the Sat phone, but it's hit or miss. Through clearances FTW, which, yes means we're IFR and flying the ODP.

Or you could cancel IFR

 

[Dugie8]

I'm going to have to dig(I don't have these memorized, and just happened to be going through ours looking for something else when you asked for C077) to find out where it says it's okay, but I know we can operate an entire flight in our tprops under VFR, given lots of conditions.
I'm trying to think of one which mandates IFR, after all there are VFR only certificates. VFR seems like the baseline, and you add from there.

That's what I'm thinking. Digging through my OpSpecs and GOM I'm finding nothing mandating IFR save for c077


The wording in c077 could be read a few ways too. It says all operations followed by 135 turbojet ops. That could mean all ops must be operated under the same rules and restrictions as turbojets but that seems to vague.

 

[z987k]

Or you could cancel IFR

Well assuming you can get in without an approach even if the weather is VFR.

That's what I'm thinking. Digging through my OpSpecs and GOM I'm finding nothing mandating IFR save for c077


The wording in c077 could be read a few ways too. It says all operations followed by 135 turbojet ops. That could mean all ops must be operated under the same rules and restrictions as turbojets but that seems to vague.

I agree.

 

[ppragman]

Well assuming you can get in without an approach even if the weather is VFR.


I agree.

Well... I mean, routinely I have to start the approach into PAFS and cancel once I'm down below the MVA, because the lowest they can get me is 4000' MSL, and I can stay in radio communications with ZAN down to 2000-ish.

 

[Dugie8]

I'm trying to think of one which mandates IFR, after all there are VFR only certificates. VFR seems like the baseline, and you add from there.

We're both having reading problems. c077 is the OpSpec that requires the flight be done under IFR.


It's late, I'm starting to see Jesus....

 

[z987k]

Well... I mean, routinely I have to start the approach into PAFS and cancel once I'm down below the MVA, because the lowest they can get me is 4000' MSL, and I can stay in radio communications with ZAN down to 2000-ish.

PARC, you can get center to about 2000ish, but lets say the weather is 1000-3. Ok, so you break out at 1000, but you can't cancel anymore and the nearest radio is FYU, so you're not talking to FSS. Now you're on the ground with an open flight plan and no way to leave without a sat phone or hope someone in the village will let you use theirs. AKP is the same way, but worse(GCO doesn't work). I can't even get center at 9000 on the missed there.
Luckily there's almost always a Delta or other English speaking flight overhead at 40 something who can usually relay.

 

[MNFlyboy]

In regards to the departures, @Cessnaflyer when we take off out of PHJH, our clearance is "Cleared to Honolulu via VFR climb to CHAIN intersection, then via JULLE5 arrival, climb maintain 6,000...." So here it is I have my IFR clearance to Honolulu but it requires a VFR climb. Now usually we request the clearance this way because the ODP for PHJH is a large arc the opposite direction of where we want to go and seemingly inconvenient for my .7 trip home.

 

[BobDDuck]

In regards to the departures, @Cessnaflyer when we take off out of PHJH, our clearance is "Cleared to Honolulu via VFR climb to CHAIN intersection, then via JULLE5 arrival, climb maintain 6,000...." So here it is I have my IFR clearance to Honolulu but it requires a VFR climb. Now usually we request the clearance this way because the ODP for PHJH is a large arc the opposite direction of where we want to go and seemingly inconvenient for my .7 trip home.

I wonder if they shut down the airport for IFR arrivals until you tag up on their scope once you've taken off.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

I wonder if they shut down the airport for IFR arrivals until you tag up on their scope once you've taken off.

I don't recall that happening while we were monitoring the Kapalua radio operator. We would vfr climb to chain most of the time and when we were milk running it we would be getting one or while the other one went in.

 

[BobDDuck]

I don't recall that happening while we were monitoring the Kapalua radio operator. We would vfr climb to chain most of the time and when we were milk running it we would be getting one or while the other one went in.

Then if they aren't shutting down the airport for your departure, then you weren't operating as an IFR aircraft UNTIL they said "radar contact" so the "VFR climb" really is just that; a VFR departure and then picking up a clearance in the air.

That said, they do some strange things out here. Last night I called for taxi at Maui and the guy cleared us for take off with no taxi instructions or anything.