this must kinda suck, eh?
- Thread starter triple7
- Start date
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I feel very sorry for everyone affected by this.
WillNotFly4Food
Well-Known Member
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Mrmph!
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Speed Tape... works every time!
I grew up in a DAL family so I've always been a fanboy but this is wow, just wow.
Want to know the best part? If DAL still goes Chapter 11 it will be because "the pilots didn't give us concessions fast enough."
Mrmph!
[/ QUOTE ]
Speed Tape... works every time!
I grew up in a DAL family so I've always been a fanboy but this is wow, just wow.
Want to know the best part? If DAL still goes Chapter 11 it will be because "the pilots didn't give us concessions fast enough."
montanapilot
Well-Known Member
the BS part of this whole deal is that management will get a bonus for 'saving' the company. Win or lose management stays fat, dumb, and happy.
Why cant bonuses be perfomance based? I dont have a problem with bonuses to management as long as they are keeping the company profitable and in the black. However, it really chaps peoples asses when they scream for cuts when they dont take one themselves.
Why cant bonuses be perfomance based? I dont have a problem with bonuses to management as long as they are keeping the company profitable and in the black. However, it really chaps peoples asses when they scream for cuts when they dont take one themselves.
Heath
Well-Known Member
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the BS part of this whole deal is that management will get a bonus for 'saving' the company. Win or lose management stays fat, dumb, and happy.
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Well, I don't know about THAT. From what I've read about the new CEO, he's basically working for peanuts. He's a very wealthy CEO of some other companies who took the job for the challenge of trying to turn it around, not the salary. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at ALL taking up for what's been going on. Living in Peachtree City, I've got TONS of friends affected by this. And hoping to pursue a flight career soon myself, I hate to see it.
I was thinking exactly what Triple7 posted, though. Wow, that must really hurt when you're used to making a certain wage and are told that you've just received a 30% cut. I don't think it came across the way he meant it. My heart goes out to all of you affected. It just really stinks.
On a positive note, combined with the other concessions, AMEX financing, and debt restructuring, do you think it will lead to DAL's being able to turn things around?
the BS part of this whole deal is that management will get a bonus for 'saving' the company. Win or lose management stays fat, dumb, and happy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I don't know about THAT. From what I've read about the new CEO, he's basically working for peanuts. He's a very wealthy CEO of some other companies who took the job for the challenge of trying to turn it around, not the salary. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at ALL taking up for what's been going on. Living in Peachtree City, I've got TONS of friends affected by this. And hoping to pursue a flight career soon myself, I hate to see it.
I was thinking exactly what Triple7 posted, though. Wow, that must really hurt when you're used to making a certain wage and are told that you've just received a 30% cut. I don't think it came across the way he meant it. My heart goes out to all of you affected. It just really stinks.
On a positive note, combined with the other concessions, AMEX financing, and debt restructuring, do you think it will lead to DAL's being able to turn things around?
flyover
New Member
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Here's another thing -- look at what Delta did with their $20 billion in debt. Not one thing. They went and got concessions from their employees, but did they go and tell the debt holders, give us new terms, or we'll just file chapter 11 and you'll be holding the bag?
Nope.
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First of all the 20 billion in debt was a big mistake. The proper course of action post-9/11 was to immediately cut costs (including labor) and preserve capital and credit worthiness. There were already strong indications, pre 9/11, that the airline industry was in trouble. Such a strategy was essential to preserve long term careers, so it was in the interests of everybody. Instead they used all their credit to borrow billions to create cash reserves to weather the storm, painlessly, since they were doing nothing to handle costs. It couldn't work and didn't. It's hard to over state the incredible lack of leadership from Delta management in not communicating to their employees what was at stake way back in 2001. One CEO tried to do it in the late 90s and was sacked for it.
Secondly, they are in negotiations with creditors. They can't make it if the pilots work for free unless they get substantial concessions from creditors. So there is more to come on that. They are following the AMR model which has yet to be successful. Nothing will work until some capacity is pulled down and some hubs are shuttered. Even the head of ALPA admits the legacies are going to have to consolidate and close some hubs to have any chance of a future.
These are tough times and I hope that everyone that wants a career in this industry makes it through to see some sunny skies ahead.
Here's another thing -- look at what Delta did with their $20 billion in debt. Not one thing. They went and got concessions from their employees, but did they go and tell the debt holders, give us new terms, or we'll just file chapter 11 and you'll be holding the bag?
Nope.
[/ QUOTE ]
First of all the 20 billion in debt was a big mistake. The proper course of action post-9/11 was to immediately cut costs (including labor) and preserve capital and credit worthiness. There were already strong indications, pre 9/11, that the airline industry was in trouble. Such a strategy was essential to preserve long term careers, so it was in the interests of everybody. Instead they used all their credit to borrow billions to create cash reserves to weather the storm, painlessly, since they were doing nothing to handle costs. It couldn't work and didn't. It's hard to over state the incredible lack of leadership from Delta management in not communicating to their employees what was at stake way back in 2001. One CEO tried to do it in the late 90s and was sacked for it.
Secondly, they are in negotiations with creditors. They can't make it if the pilots work for free unless they get substantial concessions from creditors. So there is more to come on that. They are following the AMR model which has yet to be successful. Nothing will work until some capacity is pulled down and some hubs are shuttered. Even the head of ALPA admits the legacies are going to have to consolidate and close some hubs to have any chance of a future.
These are tough times and I hope that everyone that wants a career in this industry makes it through to see some sunny skies ahead.
Heath
Well-Known Member
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Holy cow Heath, it's been what, a year since you last posted?
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LOL, no, I posted a few days ago about finishing my PPL.
Update for me, I had a house fire in December of last year, got engaged, moved to Peachtree City and got married. That slowed my PPL training, but finally finished last week. I'm looking hard at ATP.
When I first heard about the deal that was struck, I thought of you, Doug. I can't imagine. But I'm assuming you were at least kind of aware something was coming. But it still sucks!
Ever have a long layover or crashing in ATL and would like to grab a burger, let me know. There's a pretty good BBQ joint pretty close to the airport.
Holy cow Heath, it's been what, a year since you last posted?
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, no, I posted a few days ago about finishing my PPL.
Update for me, I had a house fire in December of last year, got engaged, moved to Peachtree City and got married. That slowed my PPL training, but finally finished last week. I'm looking hard at ATP.
When I first heard about the deal that was struck, I thought of you, Doug. I can't imagine. But I'm assuming you were at least kind of aware something was coming. But it still sucks!
Ever have a long layover or crashing in ATL and would like to grab a burger, let me know. There's a pretty good BBQ joint pretty close to the airport.
Minnesota_Flyer
New Member
Slightly off topic, but a nice example of why Delta really is heading for bankruptcy court:
Marketing Stupidity
It's registration only, so here's part of the story:
[ QUOTE ]
The robots at Delta Airlines apparently didn't get the memo last month -- or haven't consulted a sports section in the last several -- to get this newsflash: hockey is officially "locked out." . . . The lockout began Sept. 15 -- last month.
Yet a glance at this weekend's Fan Fares from Delta Airlines suggests something a bit different:
"Hockey action is back," the site reports. "Catch a game and support your hometown team in one of these great hockey towns."
Seven last-minute flight deals are then listed, including a $158 roundtrip flight from Minneapolis to Dallas, for the scheduled matchup between the Stars and Wild on Monday, Nov. 1.
[/ QUOTE ]
Marketing Stupidity
It's registration only, so here's part of the story:
[ QUOTE ]
The robots at Delta Airlines apparently didn't get the memo last month -- or haven't consulted a sports section in the last several -- to get this newsflash: hockey is officially "locked out." . . . The lockout began Sept. 15 -- last month.
Yet a glance at this weekend's Fan Fares from Delta Airlines suggests something a bit different:
"Hockey action is back," the site reports. "Catch a game and support your hometown team in one of these great hockey towns."
Seven last-minute flight deals are then listed, including a $158 roundtrip flight from Minneapolis to Dallas, for the scheduled matchup between the Stars and Wild on Monday, Nov. 1.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I've always been a 'side venture' type of guy because I hate setting an alarm clock and having some bozo 1800 miles away dictate when I'll be able to see my wife.
So it's actually more impetus keep on keepin' on!
I think the wake up call came back in 2000 when it was hard pulling myself away from working on a web application to go fly around a jet.
So it's actually more impetus keep on keepin' on!
I think the wake up call came back in 2000 when it was hard pulling myself away from working on a web application to go fly around a jet.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mrmph!
[/ QUOTE ]
Speed Tape... works every time!
I grew up in a DAL family so I've always been a fanboy but this is wow, just wow.
Want to know the best part? If DAL still goes Chapter 11 it will be because "the pilots didn't give us concessions fast enough."
[/ QUOTE ]well, of course! why not just keep blaming the pilots right?
[ QUOTE ]
Mrmph!
[/ QUOTE ]
Speed Tape... works every time!
I grew up in a DAL family so I've always been a fanboy but this is wow, just wow.
Want to know the best part? If DAL still goes Chapter 11 it will be because "the pilots didn't give us concessions fast enough."
[/ QUOTE ]well, of course! why not just keep blaming the pilots right?
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Bonuses around the board room is almost a foregone conclusion!
Because "we'd hate to lose our talent"
Welcome to corporate America!
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LOL The only talent the management seems to have is getting into financial difficulty. Perhaps they should let the talent slip away...
G
Bonuses around the board room is almost a foregone conclusion!
Because "we'd hate to lose our talent"
Welcome to corporate America!
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL The only talent the management seems to have is getting into financial difficulty. Perhaps they should let the talent slip away...
G
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I was thinking exactly what Triple7 posted, though. Wow, that must really hurt when you're used to making a certain wage and are told that you've just received a 30% cut. I don't think it came across the way he meant it. My heart goes out to all of you affected. It just really stinks.
[/ QUOTE ] yup, and it's not like you can switch jobs like you could at a regular 9-5 job.. if you heard you were getting a paycut at a typical 9-5 job, you'd find another and pretty quickly too for fear that all your other coworkers will be out there looking...but airline pilots can't do that because of the seniority issue.. if you start anew at another airline, you start back at the bottom of the bid pile and that's not worth it.
[ QUOTE ]
On a positive note, combined with the other concessions, AMEX financing, and debt restructuring, do you think it will lead to DAL's being able to turn things around?
[/ QUOTE ]probably not...they're threatening that even with the pilot cuts, they may have to take it into BK to get more cuts from everyone and get some or all of their debts reduced/taken away. they've mis-managed it long enough now that they probably wouldn't know how to manage it correctly at this point (haha). unless of course, it was all a setup just to get what they want and then they'll start making money hands over fist, but i'm not really seeing or hearing that.
only time will tell...
I was thinking exactly what Triple7 posted, though. Wow, that must really hurt when you're used to making a certain wage and are told that you've just received a 30% cut. I don't think it came across the way he meant it. My heart goes out to all of you affected. It just really stinks.
[/ QUOTE ] yup, and it's not like you can switch jobs like you could at a regular 9-5 job.. if you heard you were getting a paycut at a typical 9-5 job, you'd find another and pretty quickly too for fear that all your other coworkers will be out there looking...but airline pilots can't do that because of the seniority issue.. if you start anew at another airline, you start back at the bottom of the bid pile and that's not worth it.
[ QUOTE ]
On a positive note, combined with the other concessions, AMEX financing, and debt restructuring, do you think it will lead to DAL's being able to turn things around?
[/ QUOTE ]probably not...they're threatening that even with the pilot cuts, they may have to take it into BK to get more cuts from everyone and get some or all of their debts reduced/taken away. they've mis-managed it long enough now that they probably wouldn't know how to manage it correctly at this point (haha). unless of course, it was all a setup just to get what they want and then they'll start making money hands over fist, but i'm not really seeing or hearing that.
only time will tell...
tonyw
Well-Known Member
Damn! When is Delta going to catch on?
Look at what AMR and UAL are doing. Are they saying, hey, we've got low, low fares? Sure are.
But they are doing other things, like promoting how their extensive networks and alliances can get you anywhere you need to go. That's their competitive advantage over the LCCs and it's something they're marketing.
Delta's marketing? We've got low low fares and we've got a great mrrrph grrrrgh.......
Look at what AMR and UAL are doing. Are they saying, hey, we've got low, low fares? Sure are.
But they are doing other things, like promoting how their extensive networks and alliances can get you anywhere you need to go. That's their competitive advantage over the LCCs and it's something they're marketing.
Delta's marketing? We've got low low fares and we've got a great mrrrph grrrrgh.......
flyover
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
unless of course, it was all a setup just to get what they want and then they'll start making money hands over fist, but i'm not really seeing or hearing that.
only time will tell...
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Please hang in there Kristie. Doug is sharp and will always make things go right.
As for the airline business. Keep in mind that airlines have always been "mismanaged" from the standpoint that, in their best times they've never made any money. It's a money losing business. They got off on the wrong foot by being sheltered and hand fed by the government. Even then most didn't make profits.
For an exception look at SWA. Delta was also different in that they were managed like a true business for many years, even during regulation and refused to over expand or get in debt. Oops.
Now the airlines have got to be fixed and made to run like a competitive business. If they get it right, things can be quite good on the other side.
I believe it will happen and things will get better. Delta is a good property, especially ATL, LGA, JFK and the international ops. So it won't disappear.
I'm rooting for ya.
Dave
unless of course, it was all a setup just to get what they want and then they'll start making money hands over fist, but i'm not really seeing or hearing that.
only time will tell...
[/ QUOTE ]
Please hang in there Kristie. Doug is sharp and will always make things go right.
As for the airline business. Keep in mind that airlines have always been "mismanaged" from the standpoint that, in their best times they've never made any money. It's a money losing business. They got off on the wrong foot by being sheltered and hand fed by the government. Even then most didn't make profits.
For an exception look at SWA. Delta was also different in that they were managed like a true business for many years, even during regulation and refused to over expand or get in debt. Oops.
Now the airlines have got to be fixed and made to run like a competitive business. If they get it right, things can be quite good on the other side.
I believe it will happen and things will get better. Delta is a good property, especially ATL, LGA, JFK and the international ops. So it won't disappear.
I'm rooting for ya.
Dave
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
methinks airline management needs to take a few pages out of Bethune's "from worst to first" about how Continental turned around after being in Chapter 11. Before he took over, they tried doing "continental lite" (Ted/Song of the early 90s). Absolute disaster. He takes over and has a crazy idea. Why not improve the product so that people actually are willing to pay a bit extra for it. Sounds logical to me. I'd pay a little extra to not be treated like a cow. You can't blame this on 9/11 like many people are. Cathay Pacific was hurt really bad with the SARS outbreak, cancelled a bunch of flights and everything. Are they back to doing well? I believe so (at least I haven't heard otherwise). Why? Cause its well known throughout the traveling public that they've got one of the nicest products out there.