this must kinda suck, eh?

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That was a negotiated contract and if it wasn't something that was affordable, it shouldn't have been inked.

Typical corporate America BS. The execs screw up, and the employees get shafted.

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Easier said than done, and if you are going to blame the execs then you also have to blame the union. The other part is that if the employees can ask for the sky when times are good, then they should share in the pain when things are bad...

Now to contradict myself, a contract is a contract, and I firmly believe that.
 
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Delta should capitalize on this. They're a "legacy" carrier, a "Lexus" of the airlines. Instead of these cheesy ads showing a plane flying and touting how many destinations they offer world wide, how about an ad showing a guy getting on a plane and greeting the pilot & co-pilot who look like they just graduated high school, cracking jokes, etc? Then have a caption like, "Who's flying YOUR airplane? Fly with the BEST, Delta." IMHO, the key to price differentiation is to BRAND yourself. Capitalize on Delta's strengths and point them out to the public to make them willing to spend more to fly Delta. Certainly Delta has one of the best, most experienced bunch of pilots in the business. Wouldn't you agree, Doug?
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Instead of cutting pay more to try and get lower fares, why not brag, "We pay more to have the best, most experienced pilots in the world. Who do you want flying your loved ones?" This is kind of like Michelin's theme of, "Because so much is riding on your tires," with the baby sitting in the tire. Now how many people pay extra for Michelin's because they're know to be quality? Guess what's on my Jeep?

Personally, I think they should start an ad campaign that touts their strengths, pump up their employee's to go above and beyond to make customers happy (even the unreasonable ones), and brag that you pay more to get more.

[/ QUOTE ] that is so right on Heath! it's surprising they hadn't captizalized on having the nations "industry leading" pilots because everyone (whether they believe it or not) cares as to WHO is flying their plane..they should do that even with the mechanics because they're just as important as the pilots... in fact, if they did that with all of the employees "Delta, leading the industry in employee service", they'd probably be able to raise prices some and get better clients (whether business or personal).

it's all about the marketing and that's something they just really haven't focused on.
 
that's a good point mike! but why is it that when the employees agree to share the pain that mgmt comes along and says "whoo hooo, we made a profit this month.. because of that, we get a bonus".. similar to what AMR did with the flight attendants not that long ago?

I agree that sharing the pain is one thing...but working for peanuts while the big wigs get to buy that million dollar boat off of a bonus for "saving the airline" isn't necessarily sharing IMO. and unfortunately, this seems to feel like it's going down that same road.

but here's a question i've been wondering... what would happen if the airlines were regulated again?
 
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but here's a question i've been wondering... what would happen if the airlines were regulated again?

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Regulation again, oh boy, first off the government would come in & not only set what the fares will be, but what airlines could fly those routes. Overnight, you could see Jetblue, or even Delta airlines told they could no longer fly a route anymore such as JFK-LAX.
 
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Easier said than done, and if you are going to blame the execs then you also have to blame the union. The other part is that if the employees can ask for the sky when times are good, then they should share in the pain when things are bad

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Nope. The union's job is to get every single dime they can get for their members. The job of those execs getting tens of millions of dollars a year is to say, you can't have this, and here is why and to stick with it and to say, look, I am not going to give this to you because it is not financially feasible.

Of course, it's a lot easier to do this if you're not giving yourselves millions in bonuses and tens of millions in stock options. It's kind of hard to tell a union no, your contract proposal is not economically feasible when you're grabbing piles of money for yourself.

Give yourself those kinds of bonuses and tell unions that their proposal isn't viable, and they'll say -- justifiably so -- well, there's money for you, so there's money for my members.
 
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but here's a question i've been wondering... what would happen if the airlines were regulated again?

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Regulation again, oh boy, first off the government would come in & not only set what the fares will be, but what airlines could fly those routes. Overnight, you could see Jetblue, or even Delta airlines told they could no longer fly a route anymore such as JFK-LAX.

[/ QUOTE ]oh ok, then we definately don't wanna go that route!
 
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With a ban on pilot pay increases for 5 years, the people who will be rewarded are the folks occupying the managerial positions of Delta, et al. This is grossly unfair, especially in light of the work rule changes for pilots that will almost certainly still be in effect.


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I believe that the DL pilots will receive equity in the company, in the form of DL stock. In addition, I believe DL pilots also got profitsharing. If they got these things, then if by some miracle DL suddenly returns to profitability, then the pilots should reap some of the rewards. This is how it should work.

As for advertising global networks, you can do that till the cows come home, but it won't make much of difference. Most Americans aren't jetting off to Syndney, Tokyo or London. They're going to Boston, Chicago and Los Angeles.
I can guarantee you a whole lot more people fly from ATL to BWI everyday, then ATL-NRT.
 
[ QUOTE ]
As for advertising global networks, you can do that till the cows come home, but it won't make much of difference. Most Americans aren't jetting off to Syndney, Tokyo or London. They're going to Boston, Chicago and Los Angeles.
I can guarantee you a whole lot more people fly from ATL to BWI everyday, then ATL-NRT.

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Tell me something. What's the profit margin on the ATL-NRT flight? On the ATL to BWI flight? Hmmmm. Think it might be logical to promote things that, oh, my God, actually make you money?

You can continue to fight and promote the low, low fares battle, which is something you will lose. Or you can fight on a battlefield where you can win.

Pick the more logical one.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Tell me something. What's the profit margin on the ATL-NRT flight? On the ATL to BWI flight? Hmmmm. Think it might be logical to promote things that, oh, my God, actually make you money?

You can continue to fight and promote the low, low fares battle, which is something you will lose. Or you can fight on a battlefield where you can win.

Pick the more logical one.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing the point. ATL-NRT might be the most profitable route in the system, but there simply aren't enough of these type routes to balance out the domestic side.

So unless you think DL should just abandon all its domestic routes and become an international carrier only (it worked real well for PanAm
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), then DL will have to find a way to make money domestically.
 
[ QUOTE ]
So unless you think DL should just abandon all its domestic routes and become an international carrier only (it worked real well for PanAm
shocked.gif
), then DL will have to find a way to make money domestically.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I said that where?

Of course you still have to fly the barely, if ever, profitable ATL to MCO routes. But you ought to be promoting your advantages, instead of just saying, we've got low, low fares.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With a ban on pilot pay increases for 5 years, the people who will be rewarded are the folks occupying the managerial positions of Delta, et al. This is grossly unfair, especially in light of the work rule changes for pilots that will almost certainly still be in effect.


[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that the DL pilots will receive equity in the company, in the form of DL stock. In addition, I believe DL pilots also got profitsharing. If they got these things, then if by some miracle DL suddenly returns to profitability, then the pilots should reap some of the rewards. This is how it should work.

[/ QUOTE ]that's what i've heard as well... I guess part of me needs to understand the equity portion a bit more because i'm enrolled in my company's esop program which is equity in the performance of the company.. however, i don't get to play with the shares.. I don't get to sell them when i want, add to them when i want or what not..so I feel like it does me no good until i leave the company and have to sell my shares at whatever the going rate is. is that how the equity would work?

there's a possible clause in there about profitsharing? that's the first i've heard of that! how would that work out?

I should probably wait to find out these answers when we actually get to see the TA in it's entirety...
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Just wanted to address one thing I keep reading everywhere from airline management to people on this board, that people will always go where they get the lowest fare. That is COMPLETE bunk! If that were true we'd all be driving Kia's, Yugo's, Chevettes, and Escorts!

The only time people shop solely based on price is when they consider a product homogeneous, like milk. I battle this everyday in the insurance business. Many people view insurance as a product that is the same with every company, price being the only difference, BAH! There are huge differences between contracts that can mean thousands of dollars difference at claim time, even on personal lines policies. The problem is people don't realize the difference. Once you show them what's different about a policy, they're willing to pay more if they consider the difference worth the extra cost.

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I think you are making the case against your argument. Between carriers most people do consider the product homogeneous. There is not nearly the difference between airlines as there is between insurance policies. And that determination is made by people who fly and know the products, not by what they see on TV.

[/ QUOTE ]

THAT, my friend, is where you are wrong. While you obviously know a ton about aviation management (I suspect some college course work in the subject?), you don't have a good understanding for marketing/advertising and branding. Absolutely the current perception is, even among people who know better here, that a plane ticket is a plane ticket is a plane ticket. BUT, that perception is DEFINITELY up for change with slick advertising that sticks. THIS is where many ad agencies and every airline ad I've ever seen absolutely misses the boat. They advertise what THEY think differentiates them, instead of what would influence the PUBLIC into thinking they're different. To Mr. Joe Customer off the street, he couldn't give a flip that DAL has routes from BNA to Timbuktu. All he, or anyone, cares about for routes is the specific route they're planning at the time!

What you have to do is get in the customer's head and ask, "What would make this person pick my airline first as long as we fly their intended route?" I say DAL's biggest strength is SAFETY. And there are millions, MILLIONS I say, customers that put that as a HUGE concern when flying. The problem is that you've never seen an ad that plays on this and nails down the fact that all these regionals and LCC's are flying you around using 20-something pilots with less time on the earth than DAL's pilots have in a cockpit! Same for their maintenance crews. With the proper ad campaign showing stereo-typic young pilots and incompetent crews and then contrasting to show a stately DAL pilot and a spotless maintenance facility, it wouldn't take long to set a branding of DAL as THE airline to fly.

You're always gonna have you're price buyers who pay low no matter what. But there's also a significant share of the market that isn't constrained totally by price that will pay extra to fly with one carrier if they have a reason, as the miles programs prove. You've just got to give them a reason. Branding with experienced pilots and mechanics is really an ace in the hole that DAL has never tried. I personally think it would work wonders for them.

I mean you guys say it all the time. I've read it here numerous times, "they say pilots are overpaid until that overpaid pilot saves their butt." Well, use that and promote it in advertising, "Yeah we cost more, but who do you want flying YOUR airplane? Fly with BEST, DAL."

I'm telling you, it would work. Might not be the cure to all their financial woes, but would definitely increase their market share with the scores of consumers who don't always view price as the most important factor. There are millions of products out there that prove Americans will pay for what they percieve as better quality. The critical word there is perceive.

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The airlines have spent millions, if not billions, in marketing trying to differentiate themselves based on service. I would say it is the primary focus of most marketing.

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Not at all true. They just have lovey dovey pictures with smiling ticket agents and F/A's. That doesn't make me feel safer on a particular carrier's planes. They've got to nail home the point that they have best pay because they have the best pilots and to fly any other airline is to have less than the safest pilot in your cockpit. Hence, you pay more to fly DAL. You get what you pay for.
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For too long the airlines have been sheep in a "group-think" box following one another over the cliff fighting over prices while none of them have made any headway in branding differentiation. And the ones that stand the easiest job of doing this? The Legacy carriers. They have fantastic name recognition already. All they have to do is attach a premium worth paying for to that name and they'll get a significant piece of the non-low-cost flyer's business.

Heath
 
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Few airlines are making money (even JetBlue is talking loss in the 4th qtr) and it's probably going to be like this for a while.

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One airline is. Southwest. And guess what they don't do to their employees?

They don't shaft them. They have good employee relations.

When are the geniuses in the boardroom going to realize that one of the elements of a successful company is good employee relations? How many billions of dollars in bonuses is it going to take to get them to realize that?

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Actually, Southwest is the only carrier that still has a fuel cost hedging contract still in place. They're buying their fuel at like .86/gallon where all of the other are paying 1.75-1.90/gallon versus around .75/gallon last year. The exact dollar amount of the savings for Southwest is a little higher than their profit for this year, which means they'd have lost money too if not for their hedging contract.

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And Heath, the problem with airline service is that people DO view that as a commodity. The thing that the legacy carriers have that the LCCs do not is their route system. You've got to promote that. I can't hope on Southwest or JetBlue and fly from IAD to NRT or SFO to SYD or ORD to HNL. I can on a legacy carrier.

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Again, the problem is that that's how people VIEW the system NOW. That's the function of advertising, to build value in something and increase it's relative worth in the mind of consumers. I don't care how many routes a carrier has when I'm booking a flight, only if they fly MY route. The critical question is, what would make me choose DAL over another carrier when they both fly my intended route, even if DAL is more expensive? And how much more would I be willing to pay if I felt like I would be more safe on a DAL flight?

That, my young Jedi, is the key to the force of effective advertising.
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Heath
 
As a consumer in the market for airline tickets all I care about is price. Dep/Arr time may play a small factor in my equation but when I log on to expedia.com and see ticket prices from AirTran at $145 and Delta at $160, I'm thinking "hmm...with that extra $15 I can order 2 medium 3 topping pizzas and a large 2 liter soda"
 
Hi Heath

You make some good points but here is a quote from someone that knows a little be more than any of us on the realities of running an airline.

"In many industries, product differentiation provides a powerfull competitive advantage, as well as an effective barrier to entry. Established companies with strong brand identification and customer loyalty stemming from product differences, advertising presence, or customer-service superiority enjoy a distinct advantage over newcomers. yet price and schedule so heavily influence the purchasing behavior of airlines customers that brand identification becomes a secondary issue.

While customers may have a "favorable airline" more often than not they are willing to switch to another carrier for even small differences in departure time, or a few dollars' differences in price. This is, at list in part, because the duration of most flight is short, and there is a limit in the amount of meaningful product differentiation that can be accomplished in that time. This ready substitutability of one airlines' product for another's has a powerful influence on how each industry participant behaves. While each participant's actions make sense within its particular framework, the cumulative result is severe price instability for the industry as a whole"

By Robert L. Crandall
ex CEO of AA.

Bottom line is, in the aviation industry schedule and price are the major determinant on a customer decision to flight on airline A or airline B. not safety or experience.

At the end of the day an seat on a 737 on airline A or a seat on a 737 on airline B is still the same seat.

Schedule and frequency are king.
 
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As a consumer in the market for airline tickets all I care about is price. Dep/Arr time may play a small factor in my equation but when I log on to expedia.com and see ticket prices from AirTran at $145 and Delta at $160, I'm thinking "hmm...with that extra $15 I can order 2 medium 3 topping pizzas and a large 2 liter soda"

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Well you see there, everybody is different, I would be more than willing to pay extra money for a ticket if I knew that I would receive a more comfortable seat. Hell, I would pay extra money to get that damn emergency exit seat....

I am pretty excited about the airline called Primaris, if they can keep their ticket prices at halfway decent price, they just may make it.
 
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Hell, I would pay extra money to get that damn emergency exit seat....


[/ QUOTE ]

Great point! I would pay an extra $10-20 for the emergency exit row.
 
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That, my young Jedi, is the key to the force of effective advertising.
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Heath

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You have an amazing belief in "the force of effective advertising".

The problem is the target passengers are those who fly frequently. There is nothing you can "tell" these people that will change the inmpressions they already have from repeatedly using the product.

The airlines have never scrimped on advertising, again mostly trying to differentiate themselves on service. "We really move our tail for you" Fly the friendly skies" etc. ad nauseum.

When deregulation hit and routes weren't protected anymore, the airlines had to devise frequent flier programs to command customer loyalty because they found that if a competitor had a flight leaving 10 minutes earlier or $10 cheaper, they lost the sale. And it didn't matter how how much better their peanuts, coffee, pillows and blankets were.

If you really want to understand "marketing" airlines go to a large flea market. Find a situation where about 6 stands are sitting beside each other selling the exact same thing. See how they try to sell to you. The first one with the lowest price gets the sale. Another analogy is 4 gas stations sitting on opposite corners.

Then go on your computer and start shopping for fares. See if you can find any city pairs where you don't get offers from at least 4 airlines. They are hard to find. Usually it will be at least 6.
 
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What you have to do is get in the customer's head and ask, "What would make this person pick my airline first as long as we fly their intended route?" I say DAL's biggest strength is SAFETY. And there are millions, MILLIONS I say, customers that put that as a HUGE concern when flying. The problem is that you've never seen an ad that plays on this and nails down the fact that all these regionals and LCC's are flying you around using 20-something pilots with less time on the earth than DAL's pilots have in a cockpit! Same for their maintenance crews. With the proper ad campaign showing stereo-typic young pilots and incompetent crews and then contrasting to show a stately DAL pilot and a spotless maintenance facility, it wouldn't take long to set a branding of DAL as THE airline to fly.



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I think you've been talking to too many Delta employees. They too think if big D just emphasized their experience and safety they could charge a premium. Of course Delta has had ad campaigns exactly like that. I remember them well. Most of the other airlines have done it too. They've measured the results and the average pax still jumped on the lowest fare leaving at the most convenient time.

And if you hang your hat on promoting safety you better not have a summer of '87 like Delta did, or a spate of crashes like American (not including 9/11).

Your theory might have some validity if air travel was an impulse sale ie you see an ad and say "I think I'll go to Cleveland tomorrow, that sounds like fun!"

Instead the traveler that makes up the vast majority of customers just wants to get somewhere on a certain date, for business or pleasure. The airline is a secondary consideration. In that case price and schedule close the sale, period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Another analogy is 4 gas stations sitting on opposite corners.

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Not a very good analogy. Want to know why? If you have 4 gas stations on each corner of an intersection with 4 different prices, there are still cars at every gas station filling up. I see this all the time it sort of amazes me.

I fill up at the same gas station every time I fill up, and if I am of town, I fill up at the same chain of stores just because I am loyal to that station.

My girlfriend likes a different station, guess what, she goes there everytime regardless of price. Heck she never looks at the price, she is oblivious to it and so are all her friends.

I have tested the theory that most people don't look at the price of gas. I'll say "Sh*t, gas went up again 10 cents" and all I get in return is either a) didn't notice or b) that sucks and still didn't notice.

Passengers have brand loyalty, but I understand what you are saying. There are people that could care less and just want to leave at 8:03 instead of 8:05 and pay $10 less for the earlier time.
 
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