Thinking about giving up flying.

[tonyw]

There seem to be two predominant shools of thought. Passion for what one does vs. ROI. Everyone needs to figure out their priorities. The figuring is the toughest part. Do I eat and have a job, which I may or may not like, tomorrow or fly because it is what I want to do? Tough decision ... For me, given even a short horizon I would take the flying gig.

You know, when you're younger, they tell you to do what you love and the money will come.

Then you get older and you know that's absolute BS.

When you've got a mortgage to pay and don't like living one or two paychecks or one medical mishap away from bankruptcy, that do what you love stuff starts to sound really trite.

The solution?

Work to live. Don't live to work.

 

[JoelT]

Oh yeah, the DC-9 thing he mentioned. He goes by D-Day so maybe you know him. He was out of Atlanta but now up north, Detroit or somewhere. He might very well be listening to the doom and gloom types. Who else bitches all the time? No offense to the OP, I don't think he's bitching to bitch.

Was he hired here at Delta in September 2007? If so, then I am just a couple of numbers junior to him (the guy I know fits your general description but, I have no clue as to what his call-sign was).

Anyway, had he been hired by SWA the same time he was hired at Delta his life would not be much different. Pay is about the same these first few years plus, things aren't so rosy there either. Ask your buds what their pay is WITHOUT the retirement numbers added in that way you can get an apples to apples comparison here.

Also, with the merger he actually made out much better than had we stayed a stand-alone airline. Starting in three years the retirement train starts rolling and doesn't slow down for twenty years. We are talking 500 - 700 a year.

All in all, he is doing just fine. Furloughs are a possibility everywhere but, Delta is a long way from doing it. In fact, we are way undermanned for the summer. Granted, I am more than ten years younger than him so my perspective might be a bit different. Also, your bud is new to this airline thing so he is still getting used to it whereas this is my fourth airline and this is nothing new.

 

[mikecweb]

Passion lasts for only a while.

ROI means a lot more to those of us who have families, made a career change, and want a high standard of living.

ROI may not be all that important for the recent 22 year old college graduate who is single, living with mommy and daddy, and in debt to the tune of 100k+ for college and flight training. Flying a shiny jet may just be perfect for them right now. The passion might last for a long time, perhaps 8 - 12 years. At some point that 22 year old is going to be in his/her mid-thirties wondering how they are going to retire, have a family, send their kids to college, etc. At some point, that passion turns into seeking the highest return on your investment.

I would imagine someone would be far more concerned with getting a return on their 100K investment to a level substantially higher than me and measly 20k investment. But at least from my observation of this very forum, they are not. They are far more concerned with landing that regional job, flying that spiffy jet and living life as if they were still under mommy and daddy's roof.

To each their own I suppose.

edit: Just want to add. The greatest sign of passion for one's profession is striving to improve it while being successful.

Yeaaaahhhhhhh....Whole lot of large generalizations there Josh about people. There are a lot of people that don't fit your description, even on this forum. A lot of people that went different routes and are fairly successful even with larger debts than you. YOU chose to goto a regional to fly one of those shiny jets. You got furloughed. Not your fault but don't act like you got this grand perspective on the career since it's been rocky for you and you have a family. You think those people which are happy must be single, not care about quality of life, and are just concerned on the airplane they fly.

Jace if I remember got hired on at VERY low time. Which is great that he wasn't forced to tough it out CFIing or flying the ditch or banner towing or any of that. But I also know that if the only things I saw from this career were flight training and airline flying i'd want to get out as well. Those of us who have done alot of flying outside of flight training and regionals I think have a different perspective on what aviation is.

I for one have stopped trying to convince people to stay in aviation. I actually encourage people to leave. Nothing I hate worse than people that are employed in aviation that bitch about their situation and do nothing to improve it or change. I much rather have them weeded out of the pilot pool than someone coming up who wants to be successful and improve this profession that I have a passion about.

I think it's pretty crappy to come on the thread of someone that is going to every extent possible to get a job and say yeah i got one, don't really like it and I'm going to sit here for three years and then get out. Not saying someone else deserves your job but come on man that's a BS thing to do.

 

[Nick]

Starting in three years the retirement train starts rolling and doesn't slow down for twenty years. We are talking 500 - 700 a year.

I'll help shovel the coal.

 

[wrxpilot]

If anyone truly believes hard work pays off in Aviation - think again - it is nothing (!) but luck, knowing the right people, and being at the right spot at the right time. Sorry - but "it is what it is".

I disagree with that. There's an element of luck involved, but a lot of it is "who you know". Is that luck too? Maybe to some extent, but it also takes a lot of work. Every job I've had was due to networking, following up on leads, and doing my best to be thought of as a good guy. People remember that kind of stuff, trust me.

 

[wrxpilot]

See, that's the thing. I just can't make the numbers work. I would have work five years and get an upgrade to make what I'm making now.

I'm not sure why, but you always seem to be trying to justify your decision not to pursue professional aviation. We get it, you don't think you'll make as much money doing whatever it is you do. I hate to break it to you, but that's pretty much a given for any career change.

I had to give up a large salary, benefits, beautiful area of the country, and a really cool girl to pursue this flying business. The numbers certainly didn't work, but duh of course they didn't. It's a gamble, like many of life's decisions. Coming up on two years since I made that decision, I have zero regrets and would gladly do it again.

 

[JoelT]

I actually encourage people to leave.

Me too. But, only if they are senior to me. :laff:

 

[bunk22]

Was he hired here at Delta in September 2007? If so, then I am just a couple of numbers junior to him (the guy I know fits your general description but, I have no clue as to what his call-sign was).

Anyway, had he been hired by SWA the same time he was hired at Delta his life would not be much different. Pay is about the same these first few years plus, things aren't so rosy there either. Ask your buds what their pay is WITHOUT the retirement numbers added in that way you can get an apples to apples comparison here.

Also, with the merger he actually made out much better than had we stayed a stand-alone airline. Starting in three years the retirement train starts rolling and doesn't slow down for twenty years. We are talking 500 - 700 a year.

All in all, he is doing just fine. Furloughs are a possibility everywhere but, Delta is a long way from doing it. In fact, we are way undermanned for the summer. Granted, I am more than ten years younger than him so my perspective might be a bit different. Also, your bud is new to this airline thing so he is still getting used to it whereas this is my fourth airline and this is nothing new.

Yeah, that's around when he was hired. D-Day is very tall, first name Tom. He lives down the street from me.

I keep in close contact with two specific friends at SW, one just finishing his 3rd year and the other on his 5th year. What I hear is overtime is what gets you the good money. My bud just closed out his 3rd year, April, with $17K plus another $3300 for his retirement. Over $20K for one month but he worked quite a bit, not home a lot. You know this better than me of course. Working the minimum means he doesn't come close to that $17K for one month. So I hear nothing about good things about working for SW...I'm sure they are having some issues as an airline, so I read. Always a threat is my guess, poor economic times which leads to poor times for the industry that is.

D-Day loves flying for Delta though, he loves the overseas stuff. He's an old school F-14 driver, hard drinker, etc. He keeps telling me, Bunk, you're coming to Delta. The international flying doesn't sound that bad at all IMO. Thats what I used to do off the decks of the aircraft carrier flying C-2's. Much nicer planes with Delta

 

[TGatch]

I for one have stopped trying to convince people to stay in aviation. I actually encourage people to leave. Nothing I hate worse than people that are employed in aviation that bitch about their situation and do nothing to improve it or change. I much rather have them weeded out of the pilot pool than someone coming up who wants to be successful and improve this profession that I have a passion about.

I think it's pretty crappy to come on the thread of someone that is going to every extent possible to get a job and say yeah i got one, don't really like it and I'm going to sit here for three years and then get out. Not saying someone else deserves your job but come on man that's a BS thing to do.

:yeahthat: Well said.

 

[surreal1221]

Yeaaaahhhhhhh....Whole lot of large generalizations there Josh about people. There are a lot of people that don't fit your description, even on this forum. A lot of people that went different routes and are fairly successful even with larger debts than you. YOU chose to goto a regional to fly one of those shiny jets. You got furloughed. Not your fault but don't act like you got this grand perspective on the career since it's been rocky for you and you have a family. You think those people which are happy must be single, not care about quality of life, and are just concerned on the airplane they fly.

Okay Mike. To be honest, I knew a furlough was highly possible. So, while you might think it's been rocky - I've been sailing on smooth seas for over a year now.

As far as what you perceive I must think, well. . .interesting. I know a great deal of family oriented pilots at numerous companies that are happy. I was (am) one of them. I loved going to work and satisfying the mission. I also know that, at one point, they realized that they needed to generate the highest ROI during their career for the betterment of their family. I'm going to find it hard to believe if someone disagrees with that perspective.

Jace if I remember got hired on at VERY low time. Which is great that he wasn't forced to tough it out CFIing or flying the ditch or banner towing or any of that. But I also know that if the only things I saw from this career were flight training and airline flying i'd want to get out as well. Those of us who have done alot of flying outside of flight training and regionals I think have a different perspective on what aviation is.

Aviation is a much larger world than just flying a plane around, but I get your point.

That's great. Which is why I think there needs to be far more discussion on the other areas of professional piloting besides the "regionals." In an effort to have young pilots build up their experience base. Though it would seem that some appropriate tact might be necessary at times. Nevertheless, if JetCareers can steer people away from PFT/PFJ and other dirtbag situations, surely those who excel at Part 91, and Part 135 flying can bring a significantly more informative perspective to perhaps keep some kids out of trouble.

I for one have stopped trying to convince people to stay in aviation. I actually encourage people to leave. Nothing I hate worse than people that are employed in aviation that bitch about their situation and do nothing to improve it or change. I much rather have them weeded out of the pilot pool than someone coming up who wants to be successful and improve this profession that I have a passion about.

I think it's pretty crappy to come on the thread of someone that is going to every extent possible to get a job and say yeah i got one, don't really like it and I'm going to sit here for three years and then get out. Not saying someone else deserves your job but come on man that's a BS thing to do.

Well, I agree 100% with the first paragraph. Don't really have much of a comment on the second one since none of it was directed towards me - except for, perhaps at the conclusion of the three year period of time Jace has some sort of benchmark. If the goal hasn't been met by that time, then it appears he'll leave the profession. On that note, I don't necessarily think it's a BS thing to do. Jace may be in the process of setting up his "safety net" so that he can leave the profession, he just has to tough it out for three more years. Or, he has benchmarks in place and he'll evaluate his progress in three years.

I'm a huge supporter of setting goals and meeting them. If you don't meet them, then you need to generate another way of meeting them. Or a system of benchmarks where you can appropriately check your progress.

When we began my career change my wife and I sat down and mapped out my career. It might sound cheesy, but we did it. We mapped it out based on a number of circumstances and allowed for ample time between each "positional" change to reflect either a furlough, or never finding a CFI job. That said, we have a hand written piece of paper in the depths of our filing cabinet that is our "benchmark" document. If the numbers don't add up for whatever reason, then adjustments must be made. Only seems fair to make sure everyone else in the family feels involved in my professional endeavors.

 

[dcramer16]

Don't stop, believin'!
Hold on to the feelin...

But really man, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles... I really am. I totally agree with Gran; Give flying a break? You still have 25 years in your career.

The top worry the keeps me up at night more than all the other ones is currency and recency. I'm worried that if I get out for a couple years and do something else, I'll never be able to get back into flying.

I think it's great that everyone has things to fall back on to make more money that when they were flying. Unfortunately, the only things I have to fall back on will earn me minimum wage. Not enough to fly for "fun" on the side for the next couple years. Then in 2 years when things are booming, not enough money to hire an instructor, rent a plane, knock off my rust, get some recent flight time to make me competitive, etc.......

So, I'm worried if I get out, I'll never be able to get back in again. Already I haven't flown in 6 months, so the currency and recency problem is starting to keep me up at night worrying, more and more. Who's gonna hire someone who hasn't flown in 6 months, let alone 24 months, or 36, or 48. I may already be too late....

 

[wrxpilot]

I think it's great that everyone has things to fall back on to make more money that when they were flying. Unfortunately, the only things I have to fall back on will earn me minimum wage. Not enough to fly for "fun" on the side for the next couple years. Then in 2 years when things are booming, not enough money to hire an instructor, rent a plane, knock off my rust, get some recent flight time to make me competitive, etc.......

Why not go to school and get an education during this lull? You don't have to be a millionaire or have rich parents to go to college... I was able to get through with basically minimum wage jobs. I used loans, grants, and scholarships and had about $40k in debt when I graduated. If you get a good 4 year degree, you'll have a nice fall back for when you get laid off again.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

I disagree with that. There's an element of luck involved, but a lot of it is "who you know". Is that luck too? Maybe to some extent, but it also takes a lot of work. Every job I've had was due to networking, following up on leads, and doing my best to be thought of as a good guy. People remember that kind of stuff, trust me.

Don't know exactly where you disagree with me - but as you can see hard work is not the common way to make a good living in Aviation. Sounds upset - but it isn't. I have just accepted a few things that come with this industry. I agree with Mikes statement to encourage people to get out. Life is too short to be so miserable. If all was depending on skill and style we would not have 200+ members surfing the job section at any time of the day - they would be busy getting their chicks knocked up and collect speeding tickets for driving their sportscars to fast on the way to the golfcourse... Hard working people are just as layed off or furloughed as their not so hard working coworkers. It's passion, luck, patience and contacts. If either one is missing the ship sinks sooner or later. Being known as or referred to as a good guy won't swing it nowadays. Not at all. You can't be a good doctor unless you want to be a good doctor, and the same holds true for lawyers and teachers. Then, it's time to realize that the instant gratification is no longer available. There is no free lunch. The old farts didn't get to where they are for nothing.

Certainly the times of 6 figure income pilots are coming to an end. If the academy style FTO's would communicate that clearly, there would be a lot less illusional kids going into high debt for no significant ROI. "Though Fecal Matter"...

 

[dcramer16]

Why not go to school and get an education during this lull? You don't have to be a millionaire or have rich parents to go to college... I was able to get through with basically minimum wage jobs. I used loans, grants, and scholarships and had about $40k in debt when I graduated. If you get a good 4 year degree, you'll have a nice fall back for when you get laid off again.

I would like too, but I don't have the means. I have a 30K debt from when I went to college 10 years ago, I got an Associates in Broadcasting, too bad this job field has tanked even worse than aviation. Then I have a 50K debt from Pilot School and about 20K miscellaneous debt, so about 100K all together. And right now I have no way to pay on these loans, I couldn't stomach adding more too it. I have a wife who has always been a stay-at-home mom with no kind of work experience. So she's no help. It's my fault, I'm the one who insisted years ago that she stay at home with the kid.

I have even thought of taking online classes while I'm home, but I just don't have the means. Currently my bank account balance is $12.46, and I have a coffee cup full of change on my desk that amounts to $3.78, so as of right now I have $16.24 to my name. The next time I expect to have my bank account balance rise above $500, is next March, when I get my income tax return.....anic:

 

[dcramer16]

but as you can see hard work is not the common way to make a good living in Aviation.

Ain't that the truth. Which really sucks, cause hard work is what I excell at. I don't mind rolling up my sleaves and taking care of my duties and a few extra on top of that. That is why I can get a good reference from anywhere I have worked. But it doesn't help in this industry....

 

[wheelsup]

How did you come to get to this point? What is your history?

 

[wrxpilot]

Don't know exactly where you disagree with me - but as you can see hard work is not the common way to make a good living in Aviation.

Maybe I misunderstood, but you seem to indicate hard work has nothing to do with success in aviation. Your quote:

"If anyone truly believes hard work pays off in Aviation - think again - it is nothing (!) but luck, knowing the right people, and being at the right spot at the right time. Sorry - but "it is what it is"."

I disagree, I think hard work is a key to a good career no matter where you're at. Knowing the right people is often due to the individual engaging in a lot of footwork and networking, while another person doesn't make the effort.

It certainly isn't a guarantee, which you and I both agree on. I know several very hard working people that are out of a job (that includes fields outside of aviation). But I'm willing to bet that they will eventually overcome that obstacle and succeed with whatever they choose to do.

 

[dcramer16]

How did you come to get to this point? What is your history?

History: http://forums.jetcareers.com/freight-pilots-ootsk/80838-flx-taking-usc-routes-5.html

 

[JoelT]

Yeah, that's around when he was hired. D-Day is very tall, first name Tom. He lives down the street from me.

I keep in close contact with two specific friends at SW, one just finishing his 3rd year and the other on his 5th year. What I hear is overtime is what gets you the good money. My bud just closed out his 3rd year, April, with $17K plus another $3300 for his retirement. Over $20K for one month but he worked quite a bit, not home a lot. You know this better than me of course. Working the minimum means he doesn't come close to that $17K for one month. So I hear nothing about good things about working for SW...I'm sure they are having some issues as an airline, so I read. Always a threat is my guess, poor economic times which leads to poor times for the industry that is.

D-Day loves flying for Delta though, he loves the overseas stuff. He's an old school F-14 driver, hard drinker, etc. He keeps telling me, Bunk, you're coming to Delta. The international flying doesn't sound that bad at all IMO. Thats what I used to do off the decks of the aircraft carrier flying C-2's. Much nicer planes with Delta

Yep, that's him. I just didn't want to give his name on a public forum.

You are right about the over-time. Unfortunately, here at Delta if you are junior it is hard to get. But, once a line-holder picking up a "Green-Slip" (double-time) here and there will add a butt-load of cash to your paycheck.

I have done the LCC/short-haul stuff for ten years, the SWA guys can have it. The International thing makes it almost like you are not coming into work. Plus, I am home with my little girl more than half of the month.

Tell Tom I'll see him at JFK.

Joel

 

[Cessna414JJB]

Ain't that the truth. Which really sucks, cause hard work is what I excell at. I don't mind rolling up my sleaves and taking care of my duties and a few extra on top of that. That is why I can get a good reference from anywhere I have worked. But it doesn't help in this industry....

See - thats where we agree but differ in approach.
You dumped a good paying job to do this. You worked hard. You tried to be the good guy. You reached something 1000's of others will never get to try. Yet - this industry has shown you it's teeth. And it has bitten you in your rear end. You could have been bitten in the rear end by any other activity you could have chosen back then. With $16.24 it sure doesn't look rosy, but I dare to say it will work out for you.

Maybe I misunderstood, but you seem to indicate hard work has nothing to do with success in aviation. Your quote:

"If anyone truly believes hard work pays off in Aviation - think again - it is nothing (!) but luck, knowing the right people, and being at the right spot at the right time. Sorry - but "it is what it is"."

I disagree, I think hard work is a key to a good career no matter where you're at. Knowing the right people is often due to the individual engaging in a lot of footwork and networking, while another person doesn't make the effort.

It certainly isn't a guarantee, which you and I both agree on. I know several very hard working people that are out of a job (that includes fields outside of aviation). But I'm willing to bet that they will eventually overcome that obstacle and succeed with whatever they choose to do.

Maybe I chose the wrong words - by making this impression upon you. I believe that hard work is the key to a good career. Yet, success depends on a mixture of the other things I named to be important virtues. I have seen lazy bums succeed in many sorts of industries. Only those with patience and the desire to overcome had any measurable success. Whining about it does nothing. I usually tell people to either "get the hell out - or buckle up & shut up" its going to be rough.

I often wonder what would have happened to me if I did not grow up around airplanes and flight instructors. What if I wasn't surrounded by airline pilots from 6 years old? Maybe I could have pursued this airline pilot career when I had a chance to do it in Europe... but I had seen for years and years what this job had done to the people and their families. I decided to do something else and fly for a hobby for 10 years before the bug came back to bite me. I wanted to step in my Grandfathers footsteps and be a CFI. He had done it for 64 years. My decision to pursue this came in 1999 (5 years after getting my PPL & 10 years after having started to fly Gliders) and it turned into a 10 year ordeal to make it happen and get to where I am now. I watched large parts of Europe's GA industry be wiped out by the mob and the airlines and decided the US would be the place to be anyways. Now I stand no 50 feet from the CFI gate, with good skills, good experience and a good attitude - lots of good references, a willingness to do what I can... but I realize that I have managed to be ready when the poop just hit the fan again. It was hard work - lots of patience, lots of money, lots of lost friendships and relationships (because flying is always sooo important) and all I can do is watch Academy kids get the jobs - no matter how much they put in.

When I look at it this way - I get mad at flying. Hell! :banghead:

But then, I know 4 days from now I'll climb through a solid overcast and break out between layers or on top - and realize that this is what I want.
I could go sell stuff, manage people or cube myself and fight with grumpy coworkers all day for a equally uncertain financial future. Been there, done that and a big BMW in the Garage makes you no better person. So the game continues. It's essentially still the same game - the only thing that has changed are the faces and lately, so it seems, the quality and integrity of the players.