Thinking about giving up flying.

[wrxpilot]

Oh, I don't hate the job at all. Love it. Just don't see much future in it. Airplanes are gas hogs, long range travel at high speed is a luxury, some would argue that automation decreases the necessary skill set and thus the renumeration, multi-crew licensing, etc etc etc. It seems glaringly obvious to me that jetting around the globe at the drop of a hat is exactly the sort of behavior that will be economically unfashionable in years to come.

Anything's possible, but I really don't see what alternative transportation there is to flying. The fact is, the world's just too darn big for anything else. Needs will outweigh fashionability any day of the week. I've taken trains across the US and Europe, and they're great for regional travel. Extremely tedious and long for distances greater than that, even when traveling something as sophisticated as the German ICE train.

As far as energy is concerned, once our society finally takes future energy seriously (hint, we still aren't), viable plans for a sustainable cost effective future will most assuredly be developed. Apparently it's going to take a couple more years before we hit reality and invest in fission and fusion, but it will come. Along with it, cost effective means for producing synthetic Jet A.

Undoubtedly we will see many more changes with aviation in the upcoming years, but as far as full automation and that sort of thing goes, it will likely be well after most of our careers before airplanes have that sort of high level sophistication.

If none of that goes down, and airplanes are relegated to the history books while we revert to sailing the seven seas, I guess I'll go to my plan B (and it ain't sailing or woodworking)!

 

[Boris Badenov]

I don't mean that there won't be planes flying. Of course there will. There will be fewer, however, for all of the above reasons. Consider that it doesn't take a 50% drop off in air travel to see a 50% drop in QOL and job prosepcts...the guys left are going to be fighting for scraps.

I'm not saying it's all doom and gloom: There will, in fact, be a wave of retirements come the Age 65 wave in 2011 (I think). Student starts are way, way down. etc etc. In my estimation, between the two, the best we can hope for is a wash. But I'd love to be wrong.

 

[SIUav8er]

Is Go Jets still hiring?

 

[tonyw]

I feel like quitting too, and I'm still employed in the airlines. I don't love flying for $31,000/yr that much to want to go through this bull----. I value my retirement and the airlines aren't going to provide me with a healthy retirement fund.

You have summed up in one paragraph why I said forget flying for a career. I just couldn't cost justify it. And you've been doing it for what, two years now and it hasn't gotten better?

I know these are tough times, but even in good times, I couldn't make the numbers work.

I love flying, but it's going to have to be something I do on the side for fun or something I do AFTER I become independently wealthy.

 

[JaceTheAce]

Umm what were you expecting?

Sometimes you have to actually be the person experiencing the job in order to realize that it isn't what you expected it to be. Even though you hear of all the woes and pitfalls of the job, one sometimes can't make an accurate evaluation of it until they are actually working in the trenches. The job is so much fun, but I can't take a gamble in my future quality of life in an industry that is all about timing, luck, and uncertainty.

At a regional no but even as an FO, you can do pretty well for yourself. No you can't lease that fancy BMW and live in a $500,000 house and expect to retire comfortably but it can be done. At a major you'll be making 6 figures.

Or you could end up like me and be approaching the fifth year pay scale on the FO side of a regional. Never thought it would happen to me. I kinda feel like a loser.

While it would be nice to buy a BMW and a $500k house, all I want to be able to do is pay the bills (small amount of bills even) that I already have. I can't even do that! And that is really sad.

You have summed up in one paragraph why I said forget flying for a career. I just couldn't cost justify it. And you've been doing it for what, two years now and it hasn't gotten better?

I know these are tough times, but even in good times, I couldn't make the numbers work.

I love flying, but it's going to have to be something I do on the side for fun or something I do AFTER I become independently wealthy.

Yeep. Had I chosen the other career, I wouldn't be nearly in as much debt as I am now. And I have a low amount of debt compared to almost everyone else who gets into the aviation career!

Okay now, everyone's probably getting their panties in a bunch about me throwing in the towel already, but seriously, what financially smart person wouldn't consider getting out early while they can in order to make their future more financially healthy and quality of life more certain? I am just going to take it day by day and give it about 3 more years and if it doesn't improve, I'm outta here!

 

[wrxpilot]

You have summed up in one paragraph why I said forget flying for a career. I just couldn't cost justify it. And you've been doing it for what, two years now and it hasn't gotten better?

Yep, me too. Well, except for the "forget a flying career" part. It did justify staying out of the airlines though... Charter and corporate are much better entry points IMHO.

 

[surreal1221]

Yeep. Had I chosen the other career, I wouldn't be nearly in as much debt as I am now. And I have a low amount of debt compared to almost everyone else who gets into the aviation career!

Okay now, everyone's probably getting their panties in a bunch about me throwing in the towel already, but seriously, what financially smart person wouldn't consider getting out early while they can in order to make their future more financially healthy and quality of life more certain? I am just going to take it day by day and give it about 3 more years and if it doesn't improve, I'm outta here!

Hopefully the youngins' will read this and comprehend that the dream bubble eventually pops for a lot of people. What's left is a huge crashing sound called reality.

 

[bunk22]

Now I'm way out of my league on this one. I'm a Navy pilot with 16 years and 2 months of active duty, on my way to 20. However, I feel badly for the OP...it's a rough economy and industry no doubt. I've got several buds, all former Navy pilots (some reserves) who are doing from great to okay. However, my closest buds are at Southwest with one at Delta. My good friend just finished his 3rd year with Southwest and with his retirment pay, made $201k gross and overtime (lots of flying, away from home) from April 08 to April 09. My old CO is a 9 year SW pilot and junior Captain, probably take home around $300k with his retirement this year. Success stories I suppose in relation to this economy. Another good bud is with Delta, a retired F-14 driver, making around $100k with his 22 year retirement. He is a FO on a 767. However, with the NW merger, he's way low on the seniority list and has been told a few times, he might be out of a job....that has to suck as well. Not sure if he will have a job next month. He was hired by Southwest as well but took Delta being he liked to fly overseas....I think he regrets it now. Another friend, a former Navy pilot and current ANG KC-135 pilot still, after 5 years, can't find work in the airline industry. He struggles quite a bit working part time with a family. I just checked out of a squadron that had about 3 pilots on furlough. So is the problem in the industry primarily with regionals more or less....or equal across the board? I too may want to join the ranks of Southwest, UPS, FEDEX when I retire in just under 4 years and I'm hoping the economy and industry have turned around.

 

[CameronF]

Well reading this post has really put a damper on my dream, but I am not letting it destroy it. I have one more year of college left and then I will head out and try to find a CFI position somewhere. I really feel for all you guys that are out of work and cant even pay your bills, and I cant even start to imagine what thats like.

All I know is that I have wanted to fly for a living since I could walk and I am going to continue to drive myself to achieve that dream.

I hope things turn around for you Cramer, whether it be in aviation or not. Good luck and try to keep positive.

 

[Cptnchia]

Another good bud is with Delta, a retired F-14 driver, making around $100k with his 22 year retirement. He is a FO on a 767. However, with the NW merger, he's way low on the seniority list and has been told a few times, he might be out of a job....that has to suck as well. Not sure if he will have a job next month. .

Not sure who is telling him he might be out of a job, unless he's listening to the "doom gloomers." THe official word is no furloughs at this time. Of course, there are no garauntees in life, however, there is no way that Delta could furlough next month. THere is a well defined timeline that must be met. Tell him to stay away from the gnash clusters that form on the DALPA forum. Better yet, tell him to come here instead.

Now, as a new hire, he may see the inside of a DC-9 in the near future. Better that then walking the streets.

 

[bunk22]

Not sure who is telling him he might be out of a job, unless he's listening to the "doom gloomers." THe official word is no furloughs at this time. Of course, there are no garauntees in life, however, there is no way that Delta could furlough next month. THere is a well defined timeline that must be met. Tell him to stay away from the gnash clusters that form on the DALPA forum. Better yet, tell him to come here instead.

Now, as a new hire, he may see the inside of a DC-9 in the near future. Better that then walking the streets.

Oh yeah, the DC-9 thing he mentioned. He goes by D-Day so maybe you know him. He was out of Atlanta but now up north, Detroit or somewhere. He might very well be listening to the doom and gloom types. Who else bitches all the time? No offense to the OP, I don't think he's bitching to bitch.

 

[CrippleHawk]

I can certainly understand your frustrations. I too have been spending a great deal of time looking for a new job. The company that I currently work for might not be in business too much longer, so I have spent every free minute that I have researching other jobs. Try to stay positive, as hard as that can be sometimes. Keep looking and eventually you will find something.

Your not the only one

 

[KevinJH7]

Well reading this post has really put a damper on my dream, but I am not letting it destroy it. I have one more year of college left and then I will head out and try to find a CFI position somewhere. I really feel for all you guys that are out of work and cant even pay your bills, and I cant even start to imagine what thats like.

All I know is that I have wanted to fly for a living since I could walk and I am going to continue to drive myself to achieve that dream.

I hope things turn around for you Cramer, whether it be in aviation or not. Good luck and try to keep positive.

Don't let anything destroy them but try to set up a back up as best you can and avoid debt like the plague. I just graduated in the same situation you will be in and it took about 4 months just to get any responses on the CFI front and now that I have at least one offer so hopefully I'll finally start doing that work in the next couple weeks.

Now it's time to try to figure out how to get an MBA or something.

 

[CameronF]

Don't let anything destroy them but try to set up a back up as best you can and avoid debt like the plague. I just graduated in the same situation you will be in and it took about 4 months just to get any responses on the CFI front and now that I have at least one offer so hopefully I'll finally start doing that work in the next couple weeks.

Now it's time to try to figure out how to get an MBA or something.

How much of a difference is there between the BA and the MBA in terms of aviation? I really dont think I could do anymore school after I am done here, its rough enough right now lol.

I am blessed with a good family who supports me so I fortunately got all my flight school paid for along with college. Big thanks to the parents on that!

 

[Cessna414JJB]

I've spent my whole life around pilots.
20 years of flying, chasing goals, dreaming and still working on it.
I'm sticking this out - longhaul, it worked for every one of my family members to stick around - so I figure it will for me one day.

This sentence struck me the most:

I am just going to take it day by day and give it about 3 more years and if it doesn't improve, I'm outta here!

There is a risk that during the next 3 years aviation & flying will pour just enough sugar into your tea to keep it sweet enough for you not to stop drinking it. If you can stomach the rollercoaster - stick around, it may all work out for you, if you like security and plans - get ready to be bitten in your rear end. Giving it time never worked for me, once the deadline was up things looked better... (*Murphy's Law?)

If anyone truly believes hard work pays off in Aviation - think again - it is nothing (!) but luck, knowing the right people, and being at the right spot at the right time. Sorry - but "it is what it is".

 

[CaptainCrickettMan]

I am in the same boat, cramer. I fell back on my exercise science degree and am now a physiotherapist. I flight instruct part time. I would be doing it full time but there's not many students to be had right now.

By the way, have you checked into Alpine? I know they do a bit of flying in MT.

 

[tonyw]

Yeep. Had I chosen the other career, I wouldn't be nearly in as much debt as I am now. And I have a low amount of debt compared to almost everyone else who gets into the aviation career!

Okay now, everyone's probably getting their panties in a bunch about me throwing in the towel already, but seriously, what financially smart person wouldn't consider getting out early while they can in order to make their future more financially healthy and quality of life more certain? I am just going to take it day by day and give it about 3 more years and if it doesn't improve, I'm outta here!

See, that's the thing. I just can't make the numbers work. I would have work five years and get an upgrade to make what I'm making now.

And that assumes that I didn't get a single raise over the five years at my current job, which just ain't the case. Hell, even if they did freeze wages for the next five years -- not something that's happening seeing how I got a small one this year and this year sucks -- I'd still make more money because my goal would go up and thus so would my commissions.

That's five years of retirement savings that I lose. That's five years of income that I'll never get back.

And given the nature of the industry, it's likely I'd retire at a regional. No $200K annual wages for me. I'd top out around $90K or so. That is not a bad wage, but that would be at the top of the pay scale.

At my current job, it's likely I'll be there in less than five years.

So, in the same amount of time it'd take for me to get back to where I am now, I'd reach the top of the pay scale at the regionals.

I can't make the numbers work. Period. And in the end, it's all about the numbers.

 

[CDNPilotDave]

There seem to be two predominant shools of thought. Passion for what one does vs. ROI. Everyone needs to figure out their priorities. The figuring is the toughest part. Do I eat and have a job, which I may or may not like, tomorrow or fly because it is what I want to do? Tough decision ... For me, given even a short horizon I would take the flying gig.

 

[surreal1221]

There seem to be two predominant shools of thought. Passion for what one does vs. ROI. Everyone needs to figure out their priorities. The figuring is the toughest part. Do I eat and have a job, which I may or may not like, tomorrow or fly because it is what I want to do? Tough decision ... For me, given even a short horizon I would take the flying gig.

Passion lasts for only a while.

ROI means a lot more to those of us who have families, made a career change, and want a high standard of living.

ROI may not be all that important for the recent 22 year old college graduate who is single, living with mommy and daddy, and in debt to the tune of 100k+ for college and flight training. Flying a shiny jet may just be perfect for them right now. The passion might last for a long time, perhaps 8 - 12 years. At some point that 22 year old is going to be in his/her mid-thirties wondering how they are going to retire, have a family, send their kids to college, etc. At some point, that passion turns into seeking the highest return on your investment.

I would imagine someone would be far more concerned with getting a return on their 100K investment to a level substantially higher than me and measly 20k investment. But at least from my observation of this very forum, they are not. They are far more concerned with landing that regional job, flying that spiffy jet and living life as if they were still under mommy and daddy's roof.

To each their own I suppose.

edit: Just want to add. The greatest sign of passion for one's profession is striving to improve it while being successful.

 

[DC10FlyBy]

Don't stop, believin'!
Hold on to the feelin...

But really man, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles... I really am. I totally agree with Gran; Give flying a break? You still have 25 years in your career.