The slowly death of General Aviation in the U.S.

One could make the argument that the demographics of the average private pilot have changed drastically. The slow death of the middle class in this country has led to GA increasingly becoming a, "rich mans hobby". Its still busy at my airport but its mostly student pilots trying to get Commercial certificates or old guys flying their own aircraft. Very rarely do I see any "average joes" around here anymore.
 
Cessna has had numerous lawsuits relating to seat track latching mechanisms. One of them resulted in a $480M loss in 2001. Cessna has produced about 36,000 airplanes worldwide since then. That's a little over $13,000 added to the price of each airplane for this lawsuit alone.
 
It just sucks. Renting a 172 for 2 hours a month is ~$200-250 after tax. For 2 hours of flying circles in the sky. I haven't flown in 6 months, and I'm not itching to get flying either.

jafra98 said:
It would be reasonable if salaries matched the inflation you are referring...............
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I had typed something similar to this but deleted it because I didn't want the thread to turn that way but yes, salaries haven't gone anywhere.
 
Cal Goat said:
"The slowly death" :p

I don't know about you fellas, but I still hear congested frequencies at uncontrolled fields on the weekends. I've been flying since 2000 and I haven't seen a perceptible drop in GA activity. As far as I've seen, there are still plenty of private pilots trying to kill me when I enter the pattern. Maybe there's some statistic or chart that proves otherwise, but 12 years of flying and 5 of them being directly involved with FBOs, I just have not seen an appreciable decline.
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I think there are still a few fields buzzing, but the mean age of pilots is definitely on the rise. It used to be a 7-year wait for a hangar at my field. They can't sell them now.
 
Absurd liability lawsuits, GA's addiction to 100LL and inability to evolve to use a lower cost highly available alternative, and outrageously expensive commercial insurance are all making it a big financial challenge for operators to offer affordable services, and that's what will limit new recreational flyers.

I've been sticking my neck out for a couple years now, trying to make it reasonably affordable for the average Joe to have a way to enjoy flying around here and most days I feel like the industry is against me.

Some of my ideas to reform GA:
1. Kill 100LL - adapt high volume alternatives like high octane autogas with simple tests or additives for volatility so hourly operating costs can be reduced
2. Seriously limit liability to manufacturers, FBO's, maintenance, Pilots, etc (only allow recovery of real costs or severly limited punitive damages) - this needs to happen throughout US industry. This will bring the need for and cost of insurance down drastically
3. Streamline and simplify TSO and FAA aircraft certification so new manufacturers can jump in the game, revitalize the field approval process, allowing and ecouraging field workers to use common sense
4. Groups like AOPA, NAFI, SAFE, etc should explore collective/group purchasing for commercial operators insurance
 
rframe said:
Absurd liability lawsuits, GA's addiction to 100LL and inability to evolve to use a lower cost highly available alternative, and outrageously expensive commercial insurance are all making it a big financial challenge for operators to offer affordable services, and that's what will limit new recreational flyers.

I've been sticking my neck out for a couple years now, trying to make it reasonably affordable for the average Joe to have a way to enjoy flying around here and most days I feel like the industry is against me.

Some of my ideas to reform GA:
1. Kill 100LL - adapt high volume alternatives like high octane autogas with simple tests or additives for volatility so hourly operating costs can be reduced
2. Seriously limit liability to manufacturers, FBO's, maintenance, Pilots, etc (only allow recovery of real costs or severly limited punitive damages) - this needs to happen throughout US industry. This will bring the need for and cost of insurance down drastically
3. Streamline and simplify TSO and FAA aircraft certification so new manufacturers can jump in the game, revitalize the field approval process, allowing and ecouraging field workers to use common sense
4. Groups like AOPA, NAFI, SAFE, etc should explore collective/group purchasing for commercial operators insurance
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I don't know if it's liability that's costing insurance companies as much as it is the fact that every day someone seems to bend metal for stupid reasons. I cashed out an insurance policy when one our co-owners spun it into the water and killed himself and two others. No lawsuits of any kind, but there was a $50k per pax payment made, plus aircraft replacement and removal expenses.
 
Murdoughnut said:
I don't know if it's liability that's costing insurance companies as much as it is the fact that every day someone seems to bend metal for stupid reasons. I cashed out an insurance policy when one our co-owners spun it into the water and killed himself and two others. No lawsuits of any kind, but there was a $50k per pax payment made, plus aircraft replacement and removal expenses.
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The abysmally stupid ways in which people repeatedly kill themselves in GA planes certainly do play a factor.
 
Murdoughnut said:
I don't know if it's liability that's costing insurance companies as much as it is the fact that every day someone seems to bend metal for stupid reasons. I cashed out an insurance policy when one our co-owners spun it into the water and killed himself and two others. No lawsuits of any kind, but there was a $50k per pax payment made, plus aircraft replacement and removal expenses.
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Yeah I'm sure accidents play a large part, but I can insure my 150 for about $400 per year if I just want to fly it non-commercially. If I put the exact same coverage limits in place but have commercial instruction and rental coverage it costs $3,000-4,000.
 
ghoster said:
Dang, I live in a small town between San Antonio and Austin and my hanger is 280.00 month.
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Don't get me wrong, I hit the proverbial jackpot. It's open hangar, so no door, but I was never on a waiting list. Sent and email and got lucky. Everyone on the waiting list passed. Airports closer to my home run about $250/month, but I figure the difference can go towards gas.

The problem with GA is, when people do market it, they try to show all the fancy things that cost mega-bucks. It is very affordable to buy a small airplane to just toy around with. Go look at what a Champ costs these days.
 
rframe said:
Yeah I'm sure accidents play a large part, but I can insure my 150 for about $400 per year if I just want to fly it non-commercially. If I put the exact same coverage limits in place but have commercial instruction and rental coverage it costs $3,000-4,000.
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Probably because you're not going to sue yourself. A guy in my flying club (a real asshat, BTW) owned a 172 that he leased back to a flight school. Plane collided with a mountain, killing the student and badly injuring the instructor. Cause was 100% pilot error but he was still sued as the aircraft owner. Insurance settled for a large amount, which was fortunately within his coverage. You're right, we do need tort reform in general, but particularly with regard to GA.
 
A 1970's C-172 was like $30.000 new a 2012 over $300,000. No wonder the average joe cant't afford a new airplane..........
 
Murdoughnut said:
Probably because you're not going to sue yourself. A guy in my flying club (a real asshat, BTW) owned a 172 that he leased back to a flight school. Plane collided with a mountain, killing the student and badly injuring the instructor. Cause was 100% pilot error but he was still sued as the aircraft owner. Insurance settled for a large amount, which was fortunately within his coverage. You're right, we do need tort reform in general, but particularly with regard to GA.
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That is ridiculous that the owner was sued. He wasn't even involved with that flight at all!
 
HerrGruyere said:
That is ridiculous that the owner was sued. He wasn't even involved with that flight at all!
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Happens often, unfortunately. The lawyers go after the deep pockets, whether or not they were even involved in the accident or not. Part of why my dads 1976 Cessna 182 when new in 1976 was $42K. A new 182 in the 2000s was near $300K or so. Much of that is liability costs (as well as other costs), because the basic airplane is generally the same.
 
HerrGruyere said:
Man, that really stinks. Stinks because you can just sue anybody for anything these days!
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It's another big reason for the slow death of GA. It's not worth it for companies like Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft, etc, to build small GA aircraft in quantities like they did in the 1950s-1980s; not only the liability factor (which is huge), but the lowered demand due to soaring costs.

Its an interesting dichotomy that the high cost of GA is what makes many in the general public see GA pilots as "those rich guys", and why GA airports have a hard time defending against noise complaints, homes being built around them, and eventual closure of the airports.....because it's seen as some kind of "rich guys hobby", when in reality, thats pretty far from the truth in terms of those who work in GA for a living. (in other ways, it is true, like private aircraft owners).
 
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