Snickersnwa
Well-Known Member
I'd echo the same man; well said. I couldn't have ever guessed where I'd end up, or the path I'm taking now.
The future of pilot jobs
- Thread starter JoshH
- Start date
I'd echo the same man; well said. I couldn't have ever guessed where I'd end up, or the path I'm taking now.
SIUav8er
Narcosis
Hmm, it says his location is PHX. well, Im gonna say *cough* Mesa? Maybe thats why he's so pissed all the time!
X-Forces
Big Black Guy
Wrong Answer.
charlie1017
Well-Known Member
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
Future GoJet pilot? Even if that's in jest, you should take that off your signature. Unless you're really a lowlife
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
Maybe this will end up with me getting carded but no, Doug, I won't simmer down.
Too many damn lowlifes around this industry don't realize that THEIR ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES, AND THE CURRENT AVIATION INDUSTRY IS RELATED TO THEM.
If you go to GoJet, you're a lowlife. NO EXCUSE. NONE. Everybody save 1 on this site is AWARE, it's time to grow a pair as a collective work group and say "Hey, I love my job, but I'm not willing to be beaten for it."
Unfortunately, MY generation is too much of a group of whiny entitlement "I'll get a second job if I need to" little wussies.
I can scream my lungs out but too many people are so G-D starry-eyed to see that maybe someone should pay some g-d attention to people WHO ARE THERE. The post-9/11 world is NOT the place to have any sort of self-respecting career. We are the new train drivers, and we're about to become a worthless commodity.
Too many damn lowlifes around this industry don't realize that THEIR ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES, AND THE CURRENT AVIATION INDUSTRY IS RELATED TO THEM.
If you go to GoJet, you're a lowlife. NO EXCUSE. NONE. Everybody save 1 on this site is AWARE, it's time to grow a pair as a collective work group and say "Hey, I love my job, but I'm not willing to be beaten for it."
Unfortunately, MY generation is too much of a group of whiny entitlement "I'll get a second job if I need to" little wussies.
I can scream my lungs out but too many people are so G-D starry-eyed to see that maybe someone should pay some g-d attention to people WHO ARE THERE. The post-9/11 world is NOT the place to have any sort of self-respecting career. We are the new train drivers, and we're about to become a worthless commodity.
I know you're stressed out because of all the gossip flowing back and forth at ExpressJet.... Trust me... Been there, done that, I think I even bought the t-shirt lemme think... 9/11, Dodging a Furlough, Paycut #1, Bankruptcy, Paycut #2, USAir Hostile Takeover and now all of this happy-fun-joy with the NWA thing... 8 times in the past 7-ish years?
But by all means, nut up, chill out and think about those lessons that you've learned about the industry over the past few years of watching yours truly go thru the aforementioned.
You were paying attention, yes?
Some people are going to drive themselves to an untimely heart attack, others aren't.
But by all means, nut up, chill out and think about those lessons that you've learned about the industry over the past few years of watching yours truly go thru the aforementioned.
You were paying attention, yes?
Some people are going to drive themselves to an untimely heart attack, others aren't.
Seems like the pilots on this board who are already thinking about making the move away from the industry are students of history. TWA, Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern - those were the dream jobs, and the floors dropped out from below those airlines' pilots' feet, ruining life plans and families. As fickle as the industry is now, what is the chance that you will be working for the next 30 years at the airline at which you currently work? 5%? With odds that bad, you are guaranteed furloughs, staples, and company elimination/merger.
No offense to anyone, but it seems insane to "wager" your family's well-being on this industry. Honestly, it seems the only safe and responsible way to be an airline pilot today is to do it as a second job on the side. UAL has doctors, dentists, lawyers. Vermont's current Lieutenant
Governor moonlights as an AA MD-80 captain. There is no other way, unless you are really ready to roll the dice.
No offense to anyone, but it seems insane to "wager" your family's well-being on this industry. Honestly, it seems the only safe and responsible way to be an airline pilot today is to do it as a second job on the side. UAL has doctors, dentists, lawyers. Vermont's current Lieutenant
Governor moonlights as an AA MD-80 captain. There is no other way, unless you are really ready to roll the dice.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Chris,
Seriously. You should read your own sig line.
This career is far from all roses. While all of us have been affected by some form of adversity, it's all been to varying degrees.
As I read these forums, I look back at where I was in my career when I was in many of your shoes. Just like eveyone else, I made my missteps. I listened to those that had YEARS and not months in the industry. I still listen to those people.
I personally know Zap Brannigan from years ago. He is definately someone you should listen to. What he has faced is probably the absolute most anyone can face and continue in this career. I met another guy that sat bottom reserve from 1989 until his furlough at his major carrier in 2001. He never made over 100k in that time. Well once. He said his highest W2 was 104k.
Everyone makes the best choice that they can. In lieu of that, you make the best you can with what you've got. I'm really sorry, but not everyone can make it to their #1 choice for a job.
Your position on people that take a job, can't make ends meet, then take a second job obviously do not have a sense of entitlement. They have hustle. They are doing what it takes to make ends meet and take care of their obligations. Someone with sense of entitlement would take the job, then sit and complain about their situation, and not do anything to improve it.
I'm truly sorry for all my fellow pilots that are affected by the huge downturn the industry has taken. As the industry continues it's cycle, more adversity will happen. I realize that I have as good of a chance as anyone else of being unemployed.
I hope you will find something that will bring you happiness down the road.
Seriously. You should read your own sig line.
This career is far from all roses. While all of us have been affected by some form of adversity, it's all been to varying degrees.
As I read these forums, I look back at where I was in my career when I was in many of your shoes. Just like eveyone else, I made my missteps. I listened to those that had YEARS and not months in the industry. I still listen to those people.
I personally know Zap Brannigan from years ago. He is definately someone you should listen to. What he has faced is probably the absolute most anyone can face and continue in this career. I met another guy that sat bottom reserve from 1989 until his furlough at his major carrier in 2001. He never made over 100k in that time. Well once. He said his highest W2 was 104k.
Everyone makes the best choice that they can. In lieu of that, you make the best you can with what you've got. I'm really sorry, but not everyone can make it to their #1 choice for a job.
Your position on people that take a job, can't make ends meet, then take a second job obviously do not have a sense of entitlement. They have hustle. They are doing what it takes to make ends meet and take care of their obligations. Someone with sense of entitlement would take the job, then sit and complain about their situation, and not do anything to improve it.
I'm truly sorry for all my fellow pilots that are affected by the huge downturn the industry has taken. As the industry continues it's cycle, more adversity will happen. I realize that I have as good of a chance as anyone else of being unemployed.
I hope you will find something that will bring you happiness down the road.
I'm new around here, and I haven't seen any of your posts elsewhere on the forums yet, but I've seen enough in this thread alone to be able to see that you, sir, (edit)
I don't care what circumstances lead you to make the comments that you do, but you are in no way the authority on anything flight related. You have not represented yourself in any sort of positive light here, and I feel truely sorry for those you've insulted in just a few sentences. Everything I've read from you has a negative light, and it is quite obvious that you are just not a very happy person in general.
I'm not one who believes that the amount of digits on my paycheck measures the amount of happiness in my life. If that's what you truely believe, then again, I just feel sorry for you. I agree with the poster a few posts up who said that he hasn't really gotten anything out of these forums. A few responses to my earlier posts have been pretty enlightening. This thread, however, is completely rediculous. It's almost like asking someone the American Government perfect? I hope I never have the terrible plight to be on a flight piloted by the likes of you, sir, as I wouldn't trust a word you said in a million years. You're rude, out of line, arrogant, and in most cases give no reason for anyone to actually put any merit in anything you say.
I hate the internet for this very reason. Discussion forums seem to be nothing more than a means for people to bitch. Seriously now, people. Why don't we try to help people find the path to happiness instead of shedding a dark shade of gloom over life? That's how people end up offing themselves in the deep hours of the night. Whatever demons you have, let them go. You're only going to be more miserable as you go along.
While it is becoming increasingly obvious to me that taking out a huge loan may be a horrible mistake, that lesson should not be to stay away from the airline industry all together. Finding another way to get there and perhaps not be in a hurry to finish up all your ratings at ATP in 5 months is good advice.
For you, CF, I say this...
If you don't like where the train is headed, you better get off.
Don't waste other people's harmless attempts to gain quality help and information with this mindless drivel that you continuously push. 7,000+ posts and I don't see a thread of any REAL wisdom in a single word you've put here. Good day to you, sir. Good day.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
I'm not stressed out in the least. I had a nice refreshing day at CF downtown. It's just that I'm starting to really see why some of the senior guys are sometimes sickened by people who 1) have no problem outwardly bringing down the industry ("Future GoJet pilot", the other Gojet thread, etc.) A lot of people on this website say they LOVE this career, but if you really love this career, you don't go to GoJet. By no means am I saying I'm some "know-all, end-all, be-all" about this whole industry, but I'm giving my honest opinion with my limited breadth of experience. And people with considerably less experience decide to chew me out for it.
I'm actually a very happy person in general. I certainly have plenty going for me. I spent my Saturday by the pool with my girlfriend by the side and spent my Sunday watching baseball with my other friends. What I'm providing in this thread is called REALITY. I'm sorry that REALITY doesn't have the same hug and kiss feel that your illusions of it have, but that's that. This job is a fun job but it's becoming an increasingly unreasonable "career"...
The people who say that "Money doesn't matter as long as you love what you do" have never been in a situation without money. Not having money is wayyyyy worse than not enjoying your work. And I have been in both shoes, but that's irrelevant.
But I'm not just saying that it's "not perfect"... it's "not worth it"... there is a difference. Honestly, if you're an intelligent young person, I would recommend so many other career paths. However, for the uneducated (that it seems the regionals are starting to get a gradual influx of), this is a great job. This is the best paying job you can get without a college degree... which is maybe the appeal to so many.
If you really feel this way, that's a shame. Now let's see if you're man enough to sign your next post with your real name and your credentials. Nothing like an anonymous internet tough guy!
Again, I'm not miserable. And again, I'm simply providing a dose of reality. This job isn't all long layovers in San Diego or Paris, heck they're not even all 16 hour layovers in State College!
I'll agree on everything, except that you *should* stay out of the airline industry. There are a lot of completely awesome jobs out there that let you sit at home all you'd like, or go to exotic locales. People need to break the "Train->CFI->Regionals" thought process. It's career handcuffs.
You're a real character :whatever:.
First off, I'm well aware that it doesn't matter what I say, because when people come to this website, they have their preconceptions, and when someone's EXPERIENCE differs, it's completely thrown by the wayside unless there's a chorus of disagreement, and even then it's still a crapshoot as to whether or not the advice will be listened to.
Secondly, the fact that you're unwilling to accept any of my "wisdom" (your quote, not mine) shows that you're not looking at this career with your brain, but rather with your heart.
Good luck, we're all counting on you. And I just hope your last flight home on your Christmas Eve commute isn't on my airplane, because you have already given the impression that you'd rather spend your christmas in Denver than wherever home may be. We'll see if your tune changes
Hootie
Old Skool
Dude man, I'm not personally attacking you. But you did say that you have friends who made "good" money first year in the high 20k range. All I am saying is that somebody who has that mentality is living in rural BFE, with their mommy who packs their lunch. If you are kool with that then great, but I find that you might be misleading to somebody reading your statement about how easy life is on regional pay.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Chris, it's a funny thing how you post. Sure you've had a bad experience in the airline industry. You've been at 2 airlines, both of your choosing in a 16 month time span.
I would like to let you in on a secret. I was on the first wave of the "500 hour wonders". Yup, your's truly was one. The year was 1998. I got hired at a crap wagon commuter because it was the ONLY thing going at the time. There were flight schools that wouldn't even talk to me. I had just over 500 hours, 150 multi and 100 turbine plus a tprop type. I chose not to PFT, as that was all the rage at the time, so I ended up in an office job. Pretty much eveyone, but the few of us that got the jobs, had over 3000 hours to get the privilege to interview to have the ability to pay for their training.
Before the market opened up in mid-to-late 1999, our company was teetering on the brink of extinction. I looked around at the aviation landscape. It looked bleak, sure there was a dim light being shown over the horizon, but we didn't know if we'd make it. I couldn't find any jobs that fit my low qualifications. No 135 FO jobs on Tprops that I found would take less than 1200~ish TT or time in type. No 121 jobs at any level were interested. No corporate jobs. What I saw was CFIing for 10 to 11k in my future. I had accepted the fact that I wasn't qualified for anything, anywhere that paid a livable wage.
I was lucky, the winds of fortune in aviation were in my favor, so I was saved for now. From mid-1999 to Sep 2001, the hiring boom was on. You had a comm/multi/instrument, you were able to get multiple job offers from multiple companies.
Then 9/11 hits. All the codeshares are calling the boss, saying we want revenue cuts. Pilots on probation were fired out of seniority order. All 12 airplanes that were America West assigned were fueled up to fly to IND every single night, since they didn't know if they were going to get paid by AmWest or not.
Then the boom of 2006/2007 hits, eveyone is hiring like mad. People not even considered for jobs 3 months prior, were offered a pick of 2 or 3. You were very fortunate to get in during a time where you were able to pick your job. Things may or may not work out at the job you picked. That sucks you have to contemplate that. All of us that have been in the industry for years have had to face the "I may not have a paycheck" next week at one time.
There are alot of people that got flight training in the late 80's and early 90's that left the industry due to the lack of opportunities. Some even came back in during the last 2 booms of hiring. I met people that got back in after owning franchises, being air traffic controllers, and a myriad of other jobs.
On the other hand, I met alot of guys that CFId for 3000 hours, then took a crappy 135 job for a couple more thousand hours until they could get an interview at a commuter that had pay for training. They paid 10-15 grand for a job that paid 13 first year. 10 years later they were still at the same commuter. Some left, some didn't.
Sure, there are members that disagree with you on your postitions. In your eyes, they may be inexperienced.
However, if you notice, none of us bag on your position in the industry. Why do you feel it necessary to tear on theirs?
I would like to let you in on a secret. I was on the first wave of the "500 hour wonders". Yup, your's truly was one. The year was 1998. I got hired at a crap wagon commuter because it was the ONLY thing going at the time. There were flight schools that wouldn't even talk to me. I had just over 500 hours, 150 multi and 100 turbine plus a tprop type. I chose not to PFT, as that was all the rage at the time, so I ended up in an office job. Pretty much eveyone, but the few of us that got the jobs, had over 3000 hours to get the privilege to interview to have the ability to pay for their training.
Before the market opened up in mid-to-late 1999, our company was teetering on the brink of extinction. I looked around at the aviation landscape. It looked bleak, sure there was a dim light being shown over the horizon, but we didn't know if we'd make it. I couldn't find any jobs that fit my low qualifications. No 135 FO jobs on Tprops that I found would take less than 1200~ish TT or time in type. No 121 jobs at any level were interested. No corporate jobs. What I saw was CFIing for 10 to 11k in my future. I had accepted the fact that I wasn't qualified for anything, anywhere that paid a livable wage.
I was lucky, the winds of fortune in aviation were in my favor, so I was saved for now. From mid-1999 to Sep 2001, the hiring boom was on. You had a comm/multi/instrument, you were able to get multiple job offers from multiple companies.
Then 9/11 hits. All the codeshares are calling the boss, saying we want revenue cuts. Pilots on probation were fired out of seniority order. All 12 airplanes that were America West assigned were fueled up to fly to IND every single night, since they didn't know if they were going to get paid by AmWest or not.
Then the boom of 2006/2007 hits, eveyone is hiring like mad. People not even considered for jobs 3 months prior, were offered a pick of 2 or 3. You were very fortunate to get in during a time where you were able to pick your job. Things may or may not work out at the job you picked. That sucks you have to contemplate that. All of us that have been in the industry for years have had to face the "I may not have a paycheck" next week at one time.
There are alot of people that got flight training in the late 80's and early 90's that left the industry due to the lack of opportunities. Some even came back in during the last 2 booms of hiring. I met people that got back in after owning franchises, being air traffic controllers, and a myriad of other jobs.
On the other hand, I met alot of guys that CFId for 3000 hours, then took a crappy 135 job for a couple more thousand hours until they could get an interview at a commuter that had pay for training. They paid 10-15 grand for a job that paid 13 first year. 10 years later they were still at the same commuter. Some left, some didn't.
Sure, there are members that disagree with you on your postitions. In your eyes, they may be inexperienced.
However, if you notice, none of us bag on your position in the industry. Why do you feel it necessary to tear on theirs?
I'm not stressed out in the least. I had a nice refreshing day at CF downtown. It's just that I'm starting to really see why some of the senior guys are sometimes sickened by people who 1) have no problem outwardly bringing down the industry ("Future GoJet pilot", the other Gojet thread, etc.) A lot of people on this website say they LOVE this career, but if you really love this career, you don't go to GoJet. By no means am I saying I'm some "know-all, end-all, be-all" about this whole industry, but I'm giving my honest opinion with my limited breadth of experience. And people with considerably less experience decide to chew me out for it.
I'm actually a very happy person in general. I certainly have plenty going for me. I spent my Saturday by the pool with my girlfriend by the side and spent my Sunday watching baseball with my other friends. What I'm providing in this thread is called REALITY. I'm sorry that REALITY doesn't have the same hug and kiss feel that your illusions of it have, but that's that. This job is a fun job but it's becoming an increasingly unreasonable "career"...
The people who say that "Money doesn't matter as long as you love what you do" have never been in a situation without money. Not having money is wayyyyy worse than not enjoying your work. And I have been in both shoes, but that's irrelevant.
But I'm not just saying that it's "not perfect"... it's "not worth it"... there is a difference. Honestly, if you're an intelligent young person, I would recommend so many other career paths. However, for the uneducated (that it seems the regionals are starting to get a gradual influx of), this is a great job. This is the best paying job you can get without a college degree... which is maybe the appeal to so many.
If you really feel this way, that's a shame. Now let's see if you're man enough to sign your next post with your real name and your credentials. Nothing like an anonymous internet tough guy!
Again, I'm not miserable. And again, I'm simply providing a dose of reality. This job isn't all long layovers in San Diego or Paris, heck they're not even all 16 hour layovers in State College!
I'll agree on everything, except that you *should* stay out of the airline industry. There are a lot of completely awesome jobs out there that let you sit at home all you'd like, or go to exotic locales. People need to break the "Train->CFI->Regionals" thought process. It's career handcuffs.
You're a real character :whatever:.
First off, I'm well aware that it doesn't matter what I say, because when people come to this website, they have their preconceptions, and when someone's EXPERIENCE differs, it's completely thrown by the wayside unless there's a chorus of disagreement, and even then it's still a crapshoot as to whether or not the advice will be listened to.
Secondly, the fact that you're unwilling to accept any of my "wisdom" (your quote, not mine) shows that you're not looking at this career with your brain, but rather with your heart.
Good luck, we're all counting on you. And I just hope your last flight home on your Christmas Eve commute isn't on my airplane, because you have already given the impression that you'd rather spend your christmas in Denver than wherever home may be. We'll see if your tune changes
Again, I don't understand you one bit. I don't see how you can make such blanket statements.
I, for one, am poor. I have a paralyzed father and a step mom that provides for the whole family on a nurses paycheck. Not easy in the least! So if you want to talk about adversity, we've seen it. Last Friday night we had to call an ambulance out and I watched my father get hauled to the hospital on a strecher with no blood pessure. That was a fun night! So it's nice that you were sittin' by the pool all weekend.
You are absolutely wrong about your comment regarding what I said about money doesn't matter. Did you know that the most peaceful, happy, and enlightened people in the world don't make a single penny? I'll bet you did know that but didn't take the time to really think about it.
I also don't see how sitting by a pool and watching baseball could make you a happy person. That really just proves that you had some free time. Your happiness would be evident in your open mindedness and coolheadedness in your replies, not your thematically negative remarks.
Now I don't want to turn this into a big debate about the meaning of life here, but I think that life is truely what you make of it, now how much money you have.
As far as myself is concerned, I don't pretend to be anyone of any importance, and if I had any real experience in the industry, I would have said so long ago. From my point of view, and in the spirit of what I believe was the original point of the thread, there are several potential bumps along the way. The fact that you advise people to become accountants instead of pilots sort of says something about yourself, I think. Maybe you don't value "heart" as you said the way the rest of us do. Accounting seems dreadfully boring and lifeless to me, no offense.
Perhaps you've forgotten the importance of the pilot's job. You don't just sit behind a cockpit watching dials spin while a computer does the rest. You're ensureing that the lives and property of the customers are safely transported from A to B. That's far more responsibility than an accountant holds. Perhaps this is easily forgotten if you never really have to face adversity in the air. Lives are saved because airline pilots, and lives have been lost because of airline pilots.
My main overriding point is this, try to help people out around here, not slam a door in their face and tell them they're rediculous for even thinking about being a pilot. If you can really think about that for a few moments, you may seem some "wisdom" in what I say. In the future, please don't be just another waste of space on this crazy thing we call the internet, there's plenty of them out there. I'd love to hear some of the positive and constructive advice and knowledge that you could offer to this discussion. I'm sure there is some hiding in there somewhere.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Life may be what you make of it but I can make much more out of mine when I don't qualify for food stamps/WIC.
And the point of that was...?
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
I think people are trying to factor in "the present situation" with my analysis. There isn't a correlation.
A long time ago in a galaxy far far away when I had job security, I still thought that anyone who is of high intellectual capability should be doing something other than flying an airplane. There is ZERO part of flying an airliner that requires anything other than monkey skills. "Oh but what about all the decisions you have to make!" Sorry to say, but intelligence has very little to do with that.
If you want a job where you'll actually be CHALLENGED, this ain't the way to go. And given the pay, the job just ain't worth the effort. Like others, I'll gladly walk away from this job if need be. And people need to have more of that sort of mentality. It's a job. A job pays your bills. Some jobs may be more fun, some may be less. Some may pay more, some may pay less, but in the end, they're all jobs.
A long time ago in a galaxy far far away when I had job security, I still thought that anyone who is of high intellectual capability should be doing something other than flying an airplane. There is ZERO part of flying an airliner that requires anything other than monkey skills. "Oh but what about all the decisions you have to make!" Sorry to say, but intelligence has very little to do with that.
If you want a job where you'll actually be CHALLENGED, this ain't the way to go. And given the pay, the job just ain't worth the effort. Like others, I'll gladly walk away from this job if need be. And people need to have more of that sort of mentality. It's a job. A job pays your bills. Some jobs may be more fun, some may be less. Some may pay more, some may pay less, but in the end, they're all jobs.