The Attack on the 2nd Amendment Continues

Seggy said:
When people are killed by firearms.



Look at how the homicide rates in Australia after their assault ban. Guns are part of the root cause, you can't deny that

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/17/opinion/australia-banned-assault-weapons-america-can-too.html?_r=0



As you bring this up, investigators have grounded entire fleets of aircraft due to safety issues of individual components. We should get rid of certain guns due to individual people's actions with them. It would be the same concept.
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What is interesting also is this statement from that article: "The American Law and Economics Review found that our gun buyback scheme cut firearm suicides by 74 percent." What this stat fails to mention is that suicide rates have actually risen AFTER the gun ban. In truth the gun ban had no effect whatsoever on Australia's suicide rates. People simply found/used a different method(s).

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/die...ustralias-suicide-epidemic-20090820-es3p.html

"The reduction in firearm suicide in Australia in the past two decades is well known, but we were unable to locate any studies reporting changes in the rates of suicide by other methods. Our hypothesis in this study was that any reduction in suicide would result mainly from the decreased availability of some lethal methods, including gassing, shooting and non-gas poisoning (referred to here as “poisoning”), and that methods of suicide that are less amenable to regulatory control, such as hanging, drowning, overdoses, use of a sharp implement and jumping from a height, would not have declined."

And what would people such as yourself want to propose?

  • Make benzodiazepines an S8-category drug and reduce the quantity that can be dispensed at one time.
  • Ban the storage of firearms in the home in urban areas, so that all recreational weapons are stored in approved repositories.
  • Regulate to install motor-exhaust gas sensors linked to engine immobilisers.
  • Ban long, pointed kitchen knives to reduce self-stabbing, as well as the stabbing of other people.
  • Erect protective barriers at well-known jumping points.
Because this is what some are now proposing there. Do you not see the ridiculousness of where this leads? Where does it end? You cannot save people from themselves if they are hell bent on killing themselves. And no where in the the above proposal is the mention of the root cause of suicide and the prevention of it due to psychological/emotional reasons. You cannot simply ban everything under the sun and hope that works, because clearly it does not.

Your answer to would more control have stopped Sandy Hook- "maybe, maybe not" says it all. What are your proposals or anyone's proposals who are anti-gun on getting to the root causes of why people commit terrible crimes with guns? Cutting off the dog's tail to make him stop wagging/shaking his ass is not going to work and never will.
 
Do you think that there are no more murders from guns or violent crimes committed using guns in Austarlia? Think again.

Murders have fallen 10% since 2006 and that is the raw numbers. Overall murders on annual basis have dropped almost 25% since the late 1990s gun ban. Australia did see an increase in violent crime during the 1990s which leveled off after 2001, with exception to a slight rise from 2005-2007.

  • Over the past two decades, an average of 19 people per year have been killed by offenders using firearms.
  • The number of homicide victims killed by offenders using firearms decreased from 14 percent in 2008–09 to 13 percent of total homicides in 2009–10.
  • The proportion of homicide victims killed by offenders using firearms in 2009–10 represented a decrease of 18 percentage points from the peak of 31 percent in 1995–96 (the year in which the Port Arthur massacre occurred with the death of 35 people, which subsequently led to the introduction of stringent firearms legislation).
This data and info comes directly from the Australian government and the Australian Institute of Criminology.

Again, while the ban reduced some of the crimes committed with guns, the effect was not as large as you may think.Looking at before and after stats is what is telling.

  • The number of murder victims fluctuated slightly from 1993 to 2007, whereas manslaughter remained relatively stable.
  • The number of murder victims peaked in 1999, at 344; the number of manslaughter victims peaked in 2002, at 48.
  • The 253 murder and 29 manslaughter victims recorded in 2007 were the lowest annual number yet recorded.
Over the past 18 years (1 July 1989 to 30 June 2007), the rate* of homicide incidents decreased from 1.9 in 1990-91 and 1992-93 to the second-lowest recorded rate, of 1.3, in 2006-07. *rate per 100,000 population.
Murder is the predominant charge and has been throughout the 18-year data-collection period. In 2006-07, there were 230 murder charges, 28 manslaughter charges, one infanticide charge, and one unknown. The type of charge against an offender may change once the incident proceeds through the judicial process.
In 2006-07, there were 260 homicide instances, involving 266 victims and 296 offenders.

And take a look here:

It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:
  • In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
  • Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
  • Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:
  • Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
  • During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
  • Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
  • Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
  • At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
  • Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.
While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Furthermore, this highlights the most important point: gun banners promote failed policy regardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them, says the Examiner.

Source: Howard Nemerov, "Australia experiencing more violent crime despite gun ban," Free Republic, April 9, 2009.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/?Article_ID=17847
 
Of further note:


Australia no longer has a firearm manufacturing industry. Gun dealers source their stock from overseas – mainly from the United States. In the year of the main Australian buyback, firearm imports doubled as owners replaced their banned, surrendered multi-shot rifles and shotguns with new single-shot replacements. But in the two years that followed, annual gun imports crashed to just 20 per cent of that 1996-97 peak. For two years the trade remained stagnant and then began to recover. By mid-2012, following a steady ten-year upward trend in gun buying, Australians had restocked the national arsenal of private guns to pre-Port Arthur levels. They did this by importing 1,055,082 firearms, an average of 43,961 each year since destruction programmes began (Alpers, Wilson and Rossetti, 2013) (this total excludes 52,608 handguns imported for law enforcement and other non-civilian use).

and:

January 13, 2013

A University of Sydney study revealed this week that Australians now own as many guns as they did at the time of the Port Arthur massacre, despite more than 1 million firearms being handed in and destroyed nationally.

Philip Alpers, an adjunct associate professor at the university's school of public health, said the nation had been steadily restocking its private arsenal, importing guns over the past decade so that the figures now virtually matched those of 1996.

Then there is the issue of gun smuggling:

Last year police smashed what is believed to be the biggest firearm smuggling ring in Australia's history, which imported up to 220 Glock pistols. The weapons were imported in parts, and assembled in Australia, authorities said.

''The increasing use of the internet has seen a rise in the number of illegal firearms imported,'' Superintendent Finch said. ''It certainly is a challenge, yes,'' he said.

It turns out that the types of guns that were banned are also arriving in significant quantities. From the Sydney Morning Herald.
​
The Commander of the Firearms and Organized Crime Squad, Ken Finch, says, at one stage, there was even a ''glut'' in illegal arms driving down prices on the black market.​
Hard work by his squad, including a state-wide audit of every licensed firearm owner and significant busts of importation syndicates, helped to push the price back up to about $15,000, yet he says there are still far too many illegal handguns available.​
​
''Our intel, particularly during last year … indicated there are a lot of handguns out there,'' Detective Superintendent Finch says. ''There seemed to be an inordinate number come on to the market very quickly.''​
​
An analysis carried out by police found handguns were used in 88 per cent of gun crimes in the past 12 months. For public-place shootings, that increased to 94 per cent.​
​
At the same time, of the 632 firearms stolen from legal gun owners in NSW over the past year, only 10 per cent were handguns, indicating the guns are coming onto the market by other means.​
​
Last March, three people were charged after Australian and German detectives smashed an international gun-smuggling syndicate that was being run, in part, from a suburban southern Sydney post office.​
​
It is alleged up to 300 Glock pistols were imported over 12 months through the postal system.​
​
A German gun dealer had been duped by the trio, who purported to be authorized gun buyers and ordered individual parts in separate packages and assembled them using instructions found on the internet.​
​
While most of the guns were recovered by police, at least seven have been used in drive-by incidents in Sydney.​
​
So explain to me why you are holding up the gun buy back program and the gun control laws as a huge success in Australia again.​
 
Hacker15e said:
A Glock and a Walther just leaped up and killed children?
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Good point. Thanks for the correction. Those tools were misused and were used to kill those children, and even with a background check and AWB those kids would have been murdered. So, take all the guns from civilians and then we will start talking about a "assault" knife ban like In the UK.
 
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Hacker15e said:
I shoot a Crosman 2100 for backyard plinking with my kids.
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Cool, ended up ordering 2 different rifles. (Choosing is hard) Gamo Camo gas piston and a Crosman Nitro Venom also in gas piston. 4000 rounds should take the edge off until ammo can be had at reasonable prices in reasonable quantities again.
 
WacoFan said:
The question is why ATN finds their efforts to control the gun population so egregious but their efforts to restrict liberty in other ways (like say...forcing you to buy a product from a private company or face a government fine) is okay with him?
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That's an easy answer: it comes down to what you believe basic human rights really are. Self defense? Yep, I believe that's definitely a basic human right. The right to have access to care that will prevent you from suffering or dying? Yep, I think that fits, too. The right to kill an unborn child? Nope, sorry, you don't have a right to harm other people.
 
Interesting post from a liberal blogger about the recent gun control push:

http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/2013/04/20/dear-democratic-gun-control-lobby-how-to-get-better/

Dear Gun Control Democrats: 6 Ways to Make a Better Argument



1. Stop Sending Mixed Messages
2. You Have To Understand What You’re Regulating
3. Stop Using Children
4. Stop Pretending Background Checks Don’t Already Exist.
5. Treat the NRA As What They Are: Other American Citizens
6. Don’t Forget About Us!
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Hey I know it's 83 pages in and I'm late to the game but if anyone is still reading this and wants an intelligent discussion with facts I found this to be helpful back in Feb to put things in perspective.

http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/02/14/how-to-think-about-guns-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

If you like, just hit the play button. The podcast will take 30 minutes of your time. Facts are an awful thing to interject into a emotional debate, but it may help some people to put things in perspective.

Brgs,
You're considerate neighborhood gun nut
 
Since the government wants to vilify firearms instead of, as it's been mentioned before, go after the real issues such as mental illness, we need to take steps to enact some mo easy fixes. 1) Ban liquor and alcohol--DUIs continue and people cannot be trusted to make rational, mature decisions. 2) Revoke the drivers and pilots licenses of everybody over the age of 70. There are way too many geriatrics driving the wrong way or mistakingly pressing the gas pedal instead of the brake.

You think the NRA has a powerful lobby, just try taking on AARP.
 
WacoFan said:
I got a notification that I had been tagged, but it led me to this post. So, what's up - what had you said prior to wimping out?
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If he edited his comment, he didn't want to say whatever it was.

A poke like that needs to be via PM. Keep personal issues out of the forum please.
 
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