The Attack on the 2nd Amendment Continues

ATN_Pilot said:
So you don't have a source, and are actually just going on supposition? Thanks for clearing that up.
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Well there are two sources there with data from ATF. I think it is impossible to know what portion of the flow
comes from what method. We only know what we can catch.

Question: If you were suddenly outside of the law and needed a gun, how would you get it? What is the path of least resistance to a gun in this country?
 
Pilotdude3407 said:
Everything I read there had someone doing something illegal to get around existing laws. In GA, you have to "know" the person can legally own the firearm before selling it to them. So, it leads me back to my previous statement...law abiding people follow the current law, and criminals don't. The corrupt FFL...illegal. The straw purchase...illegal. And the selling to persons that are not allowed to own a firearm...illegal. If you are truly a law abiding citizen then you should never have a gun get into the wrong hands. I refuse to sell to anyone FTF unless I KNOW them. That is my personal policy...but then again, I've never had the ATF show up looking for anyone I have sold to, what do I know?

As much as you want to believe, people don't just accidentally sell to a criminal. Your background checking would do nothing to stop the corrupt FFL, or the straw purchaser. And again, I go back to my original question...how will you prove that a proper background check was done when you sold gun A?
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How do you prevent private owners from selling to criminals unknowingly? You list your gun in the classifieds, the guy comes with cash, even a legit state ID, drives a nice car and talks very politely about target shooting at his camp. Why would you not sell to this guy? How are you to know that this is part of a two week buying spree and that these guns are heading elsewhere to be resold?

You are right, a corrupt FFL and straw purchases are other parts of the problem.
 
Acadia said:
I think it is impossible to know what portion of the flow
comes from what method.
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I agree. Which invalidates your claim that private sales are a "large part" of the problem. Those of us who spend a lot of time around guns know how rare private sales to strangers really are. This isn't a significant problem, and it certainly doesn't justify pissing on the 2nd Amendment.

Question: If you were suddenly outside of the law and needed a gun, how would you get it? What is the path of least resistance to a gun in this country?
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Honestly, there are so many guns in this country (over 300 million) that it's not really an issue. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a few firearms. That's why the idea of serious gun control is so comical. You could completely outlaw guns tomorrow and it would do next to nothing.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Even if you got the law ratified, there would still be no way to enforce it. There is no gun registry, and there is no requirement to keep background check records. In fact, it is prohibited. Therefore, the background check is useless. I could still sell to a criminal without a background check and no one would know it ever happened.
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The fact that the criminal has to deal with a check for every single sale might be a deterrent as it would slow the process and increase visibility and exposure. To be honest, I don't know how it would have to work. That said, I would deal with any system if it meant that there was no impact to what I can buy or own.

These are the kind of restrictions I think we should be exploring, and not stupid laws about gun types, ammo or magazines.
 
Acadia said:
The fact that the criminal has to deal with a check for every single sale might be a deterrent as it would slow the process and increase visibility and exposure.
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You missed my point: he wouldn't have to. Because there is no way to enforce it. With the exception of speed limits, I'm a perfectly law-abiding citizen, but I can tell you that even I wouldn't comply with this silly law. With no gun registration, there is no way to enforce it. It is a paper tiger.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I agree. Which invalidates your claim that private sales are a "large part" of the problem. Those of us who spend a lot of time around guns know how rare private sales to strangers really are. This isn't a significant problem, and it certainly doesn't justify pissing on the 2nd Amendment.
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I have also sold guns private sales, and I have no idea where they were going. All I could do is determine that the person was from my state (or appeared to be). Private sales to strangers in Maine and other states is par for the course. You want to sell your gun you list it here and wait for a phone call: http://www.unclehenrys.com/

How about here: Armslist.com or any of the other sites for buying/selling used guns?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You missed my point: he wouldn't have to. Because there is no way to enforce it. With the exception of speed limits, I'm a perfectly law-abiding citizen, but I can tell you that even I wouldn't comply with this silly law. With no gun registration, there is no way to enforce it. It is a paper tiger.
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So you become a criminal as well. Nice.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Like I said, make the laws crazy enough for ordinary citizens, and everyone becomes a criminal. I refer you back to the Volstead Act.
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Myself, I would do my transaction through a trusted FLL nearby. Not that big a deal, and like I said, it in no way restricts what I may own.
 
Acadia said:
I have also sold guns private sales, and I have no idea where they were going. All I could do is determine that the person was from my state (or appeared to be). Private sales to strangers in Maine and other states is par for the course. You want to sell your gun you list it here and wait for a phone call: http://www.unclehenrys.com/

How about here: Armslist.com or any of the other sites for buying/selling used guns?



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it is your responsibility to ensure you are not selling to a criminal. That is part of the responsibility you take with buying and selling your firearms. This is why I do not sell my guns (if I sold my guns...I'm a hoarder) on Craigslist or wherever that they can just show up to get them. I cannot ensure they are legal to own a firearm. Worst case scenario, I would require their GWL, and their Ga drivers license that matched names and birth dates with their GWL. Most people I know who sell on these sites, that is also what they require. They are responsible gun owners. Personally if you sell your gun to joe blow who called you on Craigslist, I feel that you are being highly irresponsible gun owner.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Good for you. Me? I've got better things to do with my time.
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Well don't be surprised when the anti-gun folks come with far more offensive attempts that actually would limit you. Personally, I think we should work on stuff like this and be firm on the things that count, and I do believe that private sales are a significant problem. My dad's stories of cars with many dozens or even hundreds of guns purchased this way in Arkansas and other rural states, and being driven to NYC on a monthly basis is enough evidence for me. Maybe that is small potatoes compared to straw purchases and shady FFL's, but private sales seems like the path of least resistance so I am doubting it is insignificant.
 
Seggy said:
Yes, I do think it is a bad thing. There needs to be a level playing field in Washington for legislation NOT based on money or fund-raising. With lobbying groups that is impossible. As for ALPA, if you can't beat 'em, you need to join 'em with the lobbying efforts.
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This makes absolutely no sense.
 
Pilotdude3407 said:
it is your responsibility to ensure you are not selling to a criminal. That is part of the responsibility you take with buying and selling your firearms. This is why I do not sell my guns (if I sold my guns...I'm a hoarder) on Craigslist or wherever that they can just show up to get them. I cannot ensure they are legal to own a firearm. Worst case scenario, I would require their GWL, and their Ga drivers license that matched names and birth dates with their GWL. Most people I know who sell on these sites, that is also what they require. They are responsible gun owners. Personally if you sell your gun to joe blow who called you on Craigslist, I feel that you are being highly irresponsible gun owner.
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What is a GWL? I assume it is an ID, and like any state ID, it is probably trivial to get a fake one made. Nothing you have described proves that you have not sold to a criminal. All you know is that you saw some ID's that looked real to you and the person sounded legit. Unless you know the person, you can't know.
 
Acadia said:
Well don't be surprised when the anti-gun folks come with far more offensive attempts that actually would limit you.
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Frankly, I'm not that worried about it. I was at first. I thought for sure that people were stupid enough to panic and make stupid decisions after a tragedy. Americans usually are that gullible and moronic. But if the gun phobics couldn't get something as small as gun show background checks approved after 20 elementary school children were shot, then I don't think any significant gun control is coming for the next 30 years, at least. Americans just won't put up with it, and Congress knows it. The NRA makes sure that they know it.
 
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